Studying Japanese Bonsai Is WRONG!!!

Jay Wilson

When it's all said and done, I have to agree with OMC:

"</incoherent rant off>"

I would only add, at the end, < DUH!>


Jay Wilson

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Jay

Green Swamp Bonsai Hermit
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The only people who don't make mistakes are the only people who never do anything.

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carmi

Shalom (Peace) Howard,
Your command of the English language and the way you express your ideas are very impressive.
Your "18 month censorship (12 months to get to know everyone and 6 months to read every post on the forum.)" almost earned you the honor, still, as we have quit a few theoreticians here, I am sure that a few photos of your trees will be very convincing.
This forum used to be for people who enjoy creating Bonsai trees, not theories.
BTW Fredddddddddddd ... where are you.....

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Shalom (Peace),
Moshe.

Colors are an optic illusion of light – As viewers for the bonsai creation. M.S.C.

FredL

Gosh, I was so proud of myself, staying off this one! Clearly a subject designed more to inflame than inform!

Oh well, let me admit, the subject does intrigue me.

At the same time, I've certainly reached my settled opinion on it:

1. Anyone who does not acknowledge an enormous debt to the Japanese origination of Bonsai is a fool. I say origination because, in my mind, whatever was done in the way of potted trees prior to the development of what we know as Bonsai today was a precursor and not quite the artform we now know as "Bonsai".

2. The articulation of practices and techniques used in Japan by both Western and Japanese authors has been a huge service to all modern students of the art of Bonsai, both in and out of Japan. Anybody who claims that this body of knowledge should be ignored by any serious student of Bonsai is, once again, a fool. There have been some additions made to this body of knowledge by a few Western practitioners in the last few decades. Yes, I am referring here to what others have called "rules" and, yes, it is my judgement that the majority of this information has been made available through the generosity of Japanese practitioners.

3. I believe that Bonsai occupies a very unique position in Japanese culture, not quite the same as the position of "Art" in Western society. I believe that the cultural meaning of Bonsai in Japan has value beyond the value that Western Art has and is worthy of study and and adaptation to our society. Bonsai as Western Art is of significant value, but Bonsai is capable of adding even more than this to our society.

I didn't think there was that much to be gained by once again restating my opinions. I doubt that anybody who agrees with them will be any more fervent in his(her) opinion nor that anybody who disagrees will be much influenced either.

There is a question that comes to my mind in this area, however. A couple of years ago, when I was debating this issue in another setting, much was made of the assertion that Bonsai appears to be dying in Japan and the future of this artform, agreed to by important Japanese practitioners, was in the West. I haven't seen much of this viewpoint lately. Has Bonsai revived in Japan in two short years? Was this ever true? Is it still true but nobody happened to mention it? Does anybody know? I sure hope Bonsai is alive and well in Japan. Our world will certainly be poorer if not.

Fred

HB Smith

Walter and Jim,

I appreciate you both taking the time to put your thoughts to words and seriously look at this issue. I respect both your perspectives.

Fred,

What is so bad about this thread that you had to 'refrain' from posting? But I'll take intrigue as long as it is secondary to inflame :-) You expressed your viewpoints very clearly, and I wouldn't have started this thread if at least I for one didn't think this could use being looked at and discussed once again. And I don't think the future of bonsai in Japan has improved any last I heard; it is a shame.

Barry,

I liked your analogy.

ATAT,

Like a good bonsai, I had to step back several feet to really appreciate your comments. I for one enjoyed your humorous view of this discussion. No, I don't think the French wineries should have a monopoly on the word "champagne" but I bet the "Governator" will have a word to say about this, however this is probably a more appropriate discussion for the 'grape thread'.

Paul,

Straw man argument.

Also, polls are historically one of the most inaccurate ways to collect data, even more so a topic such as this. They once polled people whether they washed their hands or not after using the bathroom. The answers were remarkably different when the poller was in the bathroom and when their was a person hiding in the bathroom and the poller was outside the door, so people did not know they were being observed. And I ain't gonna hide in your bathrooms.

Moshe,

So, the higher the quality of one's trees, the louder their voice on this forum? One's trees should not punctuate one's sentences.

Also, I believe that there is more to bonsai than just creating bonsai. What's so wrong with bonsai theories?

Howard

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Sincerely,
Howard

www.BonsaiSmiths.net

ATAT

Howard, your points are compelling.

Thar's insight in them thar words.

I just wanted to add the following for consideration:

The game of 'chess' has rules.
Yet, there are variations. 'Amazon Chess' is where the queen can move, additionally, as a knight.

In Ping Pong, as a teacher of a youth group, I recently spent significant energy 'imposing' the 'normal' rules of not allowing the player to hit the ball until it bounces on his side, unlike in tennis, where you can hit the ball before it bounces on your side.

Why did I do that?

I also initiated and enforced the notion of requiring a cross table serve, according to the rules.

Why did I do that?

I wanted to initiate and enforce the notion of requiring a toss of the ball up on the serve (as the game 'requires')
I didn't because of their limitted skill levels, not because I felt the rule unimportant.

Why would I do that (if they had the ability)?

I also initiated and enforced that they throw the (out of play) ball to server, as opposed to hitting the ball with the paddle.

Why did I do that?

Why don't I play 'Amazon Chess'?

There's no police force stopping me from making the pawns more powerful, from having three knights, or from giving the King two lives. No one would stop me, no one would fire me from my job.

But I would find those things... annoying.

To see a tree achieve a depth of display within 'the rules' has an aesthetic quite different than one 'equally beautiful' following no rules at all.

Yet, the former has a level of respect that the latter would not for me.

Would I have a moral complaint, would I fire someone who happened to have a small tree that had 'too big' a pot?

Absolutely not.

But would I experiance an inner appreciation for a tree that, in addition to artistic beauty, happened to also adhere to the 'rules'?

Absolutely.

Now, does that make me evil?

No.

Does that make me feel superior?

Of course not.

But, I've got to say it, when I hear a Mozart with changes, I have been given something that can not appeal to the full respect and authenticity of the real composer.


I'm not complaining that someone varied the score.

(Actually, I would if they changed it so subtly - so slightly that there could be confusion as to whether it was an attempt to represent the composer.)


But what if the conductor invited critical questions, and I simply ask, 'You know, Herr Conductor, Mozart had one less note at first chair flute in that last stanza, was that a mistake?'

If the reply is, 'How dare you ram Mozart down my wind pipe!'

I submit, for your kind consideration, that

a) It is appropriate for me - personally - to prefer the original score
b) I can feel that I was cheated by the subtle change, I can feel that any changes should have been overt and that either there was a true mistake, or worse, the whole performance was a fraud
c) The conductor's reaction was absurd.


I have to make this assertion:

The term, 'Bonsai', implies a certain type of plant. (I'm not specifying which type, rather, it implies there's something 'authentic', above and beyond a similar plant not so named).


I mean, if in my store, if I were to say to a customer, that that tree is 20% more because it is a 'Bonsai', then even an ignorant customer would have been cheated if the plant did not follow the rules of anything at all.



P.S.

I'm just curious, though there's no way to ever find out - as Howard geniusly noted (great example of the bathroom case, I've heard that one myself) -

How many people think they are experts at Bonsai based on the fact that they make money selling plants called 'Bonsai'?

(in contrast to a study of the subject)

With respect to all readers.

PPS.

Moshe, now that Succos is over,
Chol Somayach.