Studying Japanese Bonsai Is WRONG!!!

Carl_Bergstrom

Ah...if Andy's right, then I apologize for the rant.

If he's not...then it stands.

Thanks, Andy.
Carl

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bonsaial1

Mr. Smith, Whats your point?

I can remember John Naka at a workshop here in Fresno some years ago showing a technique on a tree. What he did to the tree went against everything he wrote about in his two excellent books. He was called on it during the workshop. Mr Naka's response,

" the techniques I show in the book work extreamly well on the pictures I have drawn, but they don't always work on a real tree!"

I think if you spend about a year here and get to really know everyone and spend about 6 months reading every post on the forum, I think you would have a better understanding on the nature of the bonsai talk on this forum.

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HB Smith

Carl,

As per Andy's reply, I did not intend any mischaracterization and apologize for any implied by my post.


Bonsaial1,

I think your post clearly (at least to me) demonstrates how some people really want to skirt the issue I bring up, even to the point of an 18 month censorship (12 months to get to know everyone and 6 months to read every post on the forum.) For what have I earned this honor?

Howard

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Sincerely,
Howard

www.BonsaiSmiths.net

Walter_Pall

'Walter Pall: "It is against a spirit which does not allow trying out new things without guilt feelings. It is about not being allowed to show something new without the bigots saying that it is not done. It is against the game called 'copying Japanese at all costs', even self humiliation.
I assert that it is just the opposite now. One cannot imply that there is a structured, artistic framework from which we could all build our bonsai basics upon without people crying that we are shoving rules down their throat, and your comments encourage this. Your arguments sing of all freedom and play with no work; it is very seductive. But I bet you put in your share of toil over the years to get to your level.'

Howard,

may well be that some ignorants think that what I am preaching is a shortcut. If one has read a lot of what I had to say in the past then you wold come to the opposite conclusion.

I compare it with amateurish abstract painting. Often one hears naive persons saying that their six year old son could do what highly paid abstract painters can do. The answer is: well, then let him do it and see how far he gets.
There is always the would-be-painter who thinks that he wants to go to abstract painting right away because he does not need the realistic part which would cost him 'worthless' five years. This is a total misunderstanding.

I believe that a person doing bonsai less than five years is still a beginner. This includes people who actually design trees as well as collectores and in between. I further believe that these five years should be spent with intensive study of classical bonsai styling and tecniques.

Affter having masterd this most stop and think they know how to do bonsai.

My major point is that this is not the end, this is only the start. Now one can go into more and more refining. On can go into trying more contemporary versions of abstract bonsai (classical bonsai are very abstract, as well as many contemporary trees). One can now try to get away from over-abstraction of trees back more to a natural feeling. One can try very extreme trees etc. But one shoud try in my opinon to be creative and repetitive.

Alos one can just stay with classical bonsai design if this is what makes him happy.

But one must be aware that whatever direction is chosen it is becoming harder and not easier to work in the intermediate stage, which lasts from five to ten or fifteen yers of working.

If one then still wants to go on into whatever direction one must be aware that the air is going to get very thin. Work is going to be much harder and the standards have to rise all the time. To be satisfied with the result for longer than a short period is the death of the artist.
Most will have to accept that this is too much for them eventually.
All this in an artform where one cannot make money in the West at least!

Does this sound like a shortcut? I include serious bonsai artists of all tastes and directions here.

Howard, but I am sick of bigots telling me that the Japanese way is the only way and that anything else is blasphemy. I am sick of being told what my taste has to be. I am sick of being told to forget my own culture because another one is better. I am sick of half-educated smart alicks who have done this for a couple of years and now 'know ' things. I am sick of hearing that 'we' do it this way. Who is 'we'

I am not 'we'.

best regards
Walter Pall

Jay Wilson

Howard, you said, 'I can't even get anybody to second my statement that as of today, Japanese bonsai is better than U.S. bonsai.'

That is quite a broad statement. You might get some agreement if you gave some more detail. Is it their horticulture technique? Their artistic interpretation? Do the Japanese have better native material to work with? Is it the way they prune? Are their trees healthier?
If you could expand on this, it might help some of us understand your position.

Thanks,

Jay Wilson

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Jay

Green Swamp Bonsai Hermit
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The only people who don't make mistakes are the only people who never do anything.

Jay

Howard, regarding the question better from Japan, can you be more specific.

I agree if you mean trees that have been in training for several hundred years!

I agree if you mean trees on the whole or average.... not that that is an issue.

But regarding trees that are collected today or started today from seedlings, I think it is an individual tree thing.

To say a tree coming from Japan is going to be better just because it 'comes from Japan' is NOT a true statement.

To say a tree 'styled by a formally trained Japanese Artist' is better because of his/her training is also a dangerous statement... an possible not true.

When push comes to shove... Its the Tree that determines if it is or is not a Masterpiece. Do you want to HEAR lip service to Japanese Trees or are you looking for something else.

Respect is always there... but appreciation is earned on a tree by tree basis.

Jay

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Walter_Pall

Now come on guys. It does not help the case to deny that by and large Japanese trees are better. They are far better indeed.
This has to do with the trees being in training since many decades, also with the artistry of the designers, with the horticultural skill and with the quality of raw material.

But this is by no means true of all Japanese trees. I am only speaking of the artistic trees here. The overwhlming majority of Japanese trees are made for commercial reasons and are not intersting in this regard.

We also should understand that the overwhlmning majority of Japanese bonsai designers are persons who have been trained over long periods of time and can truly be called professionals. In Europe and America we have mostly amateurs who design good trees, but own can say that many of them work professionally.

We sit together on one table at major conventions, the Japanese and the European cracks. The Japanese are multi-millionaires, the Europeans often cannot afford the breakfast in the fancy hotel.

America and Europa have no excuse regarding quality of raw material, artistic skills and horticulture. We have a huge handicap in so far that our quality trees are only in training for usually five to ten years, often less.

So there is reason to learn from the Japanese. But there is no reason to say that only they can teach us. Ther are just too many good artists outside of Japan by now.

Another thing is that just any Japanese artist just won't do anymore. We have been seeing very well paid artists who could do less than many in the audience. We have seen heirs of big names and nurseries who cannot live up to the name of their father. We have had a lot of good Japanese gardeners who have no clue how to work on our collected material. We have had big names who are used to work on mateial that had been prepared over decades only. But the one dozen best Japanese are certainly worth our while. And will be for a long while.

But there are some, at least in Europe, who think they can see the light at the end of the long tunnel. Be it just the train that is coming at us.



best regards
Walter Pall

Lui

I think rules are very important in the begining just like painting by numbers they were done so that we could grasp the basic structure of the art and we should all be thankful for that.
Once you learn them it is time to start adding your personality and traits to the compositions and start having some fun.
I agree they (chinese and Japanese ) got quite an impressive head start on the rest of us. But thats OK they all very different in the way they do it (individualistic) between them.
I was told once that its OK to study the culture as long as you dont lose yours. So all we try to do is put some of ourselves into what we do.
People should not put them down but should not get so caught up in it that they actually want to change their entire way of life. My wife would kick my a... if I were to tell her to wear a kimono and walk around the house in socks, You think thats extreme but hey I have seen it happen.
even the japanese like to wear sneakers and jeans. Do you know how to tell the tourist in Hawai?
I beleve we should respect everyones style and culture including our own. So what where it came from if its good thats what matters.
Lui

pdbbonsai

Welcome to MTT, (Miniature Tree Talk)

An Extreme Forum for those who wish to wash Japanese Culture completely from the artform formally known as Bonsai.


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NOT.


Can someone, actually show me a thread STARTED where it was fully intended to deny, decry, dissolve, erase, disrespect, denounce, ignore the Japanese tradition or rules, or guidelines or whatever?

If you are growing a tree in a shallow container, you obviously know that it can be done by also knowing that the (first) CHinese and then Japanese have done so for centuries.

To think that the membership here at BonsaiTalk ignore this with malicious intent is also ignorant.

Arguements/disagreements start within threads. Persons who are passionate about bonsai get involved and say and defend their OWN beliefs of what Bonsai is to them.

Culture is a magnificent thing to have. Learning about other cultures is also a magnificent thing to do.

A poll here WOULD show you that most honest members know and respect the artform and its transition towards the west. It (bonsai) is growing and evolving. Just like many of our own trees.

Howard,

You can see that here in this thread alone, we are all passionate about bonsai, and what it means to us individually. Whether or not we agree with you is a moot point. We are here at BT to learn from one another, teach, share, and become friends. From Europe to Japan, Australia, Africa, Canada, South America and the good ole USA. The membership here is broad and worldwide.

We are all unique in our view of the art. We visualize things differently. Put up a tree for suggestions and you will get many different views, possiblities, and virtuals. A perfect example of how their are many interpretations of what Bonsai is to them.

You must know the rules to break them.

Paul

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