Studying Japanese Bonsai Is WRONG!!!

David Yedwab

As usual, Jay captures the essence of this debate. We start as babes and learn from our parents (in bonsai, the Japanese). We start school and have additional teachers. Then we become teens and rebel ... then ... if we learned well, we value all of the experiences .. appreciate the techniques and contributions and don't become negative about what we learned when we start to crate on our own.

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David Yedwab

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Tony

My advice is to learn all you can from whatever sources are available to you. It doesn't matter if it's from Japan, Europe, or Kansas. It's all about the trees. If they look good then none of this other silliness matters.

Tony

Jay Wilson

I agree completely Tony. Well said.

The practice (ok, art) of Bonsai is not static. It's different now than it was a hundred years ago and in another hundred years it will be different still. I'm sure every age had its discussions between the traditionalists and the upstarts who opted for change. What was tradition 200 years ago? What will it be 200 years from now?

Just a thought.

Jay Wilson

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Jay

Green Swamp Bonsai Hermit
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The only people who don't make mistakes are the only people who never do anything.

Jay Wilson

I just had a few more thoughts on this. (or maybe they're just nonsense.)

The tradition of Bonsai has been the Japanese practice of the art.
In the last hundred years, it has become a worldwide endeavor.
As it continues to grow in popularity, people the world over will bring bits and pieces of thier own culture and ways of seeing things to Bonsai.
It may be a hundred years or two, but Bonsai will be, eventually, thought of as a world wide art with a Japanese origin...Much as today the Japanese art of Bonsai is thought of as having Chinese origins.
The Japanese didn't stick to the traditional Chinese practice of the art ( they changed it to fit their own culture) and the world probably won't stick to the traditional Japanese ways.

Discussions such as this one will not stop Bonsai from changing but they may help guide the ways in which it changes.


Jay Wilson

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Jay

Green Swamp Bonsai Hermit
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The only people who don't make mistakes are the only people who never do anything.

HB Smith

Walter Pall: "This to us is another one of these old-fashioned rigid Japanese rules which have no real meaning... This feeling should in no way be influenced by rules of a game that we don't play here (imitating Japanese that is)."

Al: "Hooray for Walter... Quoting Emeril Lagasi; "Who made up this rule anyway?" I love the way Emeril talks. He just says whats on his mind and agree or disagree he could care less. I think Walter is right, go with your first instincts, their probably the right ones anyway."

Emperor Fish: "Is this yet another case of fawning over Japanese traditional art display at the sake of our own sensibilities?... One should begin to understand some of the cultural significances, history and reasoning behind any art-form - together with the limitations that this demands, before just reeling off the usual, old, tired 'students should learn the rules and then they can begin to question' argument... This has nothing to do with the formal presentation of art, and everything to do with acceptance above thinking. - Dogma."

Ron Martin: "For the most part rules suck. They belittle and hinder bonsai... Rules have a tendency to make things stagnate by being just another copy of the original... What I am saying is that most of the dogma in the US is just an invention of the writer. How we think it is done in the orient. This is not necessarily so.
A goodly portion of those rules we constantly hear about are just figments of our imagination."

pdbbonsai: "And what the hell is wrong with using Japanese terms when talking bonsai?"

oldmistercrow: "We've had long discussions about the role of rules in bonsai and very few here are trying to jam the narrowly construed Japanese rules down anyone's throat."



I hope that bonsai continues to flourish and change for the better and becomes a worldwide art, but I fear that it will not. It will get better, but maybe not here in the U.S. Until we can first openly without hesitation state that other countries, Japan for one, still 'do' bonsai better than we do in the U.S., we cannot change for the better. Put the trees side by side - it is not personal artistic taste nor is it cultural, experiential preference, the quality is unquestionably better in the Japanese show than the U.S. show. By the way, IMHO Japan is just the scapegoat. Other countries (Indonesia and Taiwan for example) do better than the U.S. as well. There is nothing wrong with this; I just believe it holds 'us' back not to acknowledge it, both individually and as a whole. It holds us back even further to rebel against it.

By the way, I do not believe that a poll would be of much help... yes, would all you 'rebels' out there please stand up and identify yourselves...

Howard

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Sincerely,
Howard

www.BonsaiSmiths.net

Jay

The natural course of 'anything' will change. Change will occur when what is thought to be a better way is found. Sometimes, the 'better' way turns out to be far from it, and we revert back. Customs change as well... these changes allow us to evolve.

I am trying to remember which book I saw the evolution of Bonsai Pots in. The author tells of how in the early part of the 20th century(I think) deep round pots were the thing. Slowly as the century pressed on the pots changed to what we have now. Also the styles of today, are many times more than what they use to be. These statements of mine are best confirmed by someone with a better grasp of the history or Bonsai, perhaps Andy is one. I will try and find the book I am thinking of!

Jay

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A Bonsai student living with his trees at N 44.37 W 77.49...
Think before you act... then think again... no good comes from rushing

Walter_Pall

Howard,

your interpretation of what you read is probably wrong.

I don't think all this is against Japanese.

It is against a spirit which does not allow trying out new things without guilt feelings. It is about not being allowed to show something new without the bigots saying that it is not done. It is against the game called 'copying Japanese at all costs', even self humiliation.

I have many Japanese friends and I have talked about these issues often with them. The general feeling is that they fiend it hard to understand that so many try to be more Japanese than the Janpanese. And even if they succeeded, so what. My Japense friends applaud the efforts to find our own way. Why? Because the wouldl do exaclty the same. It is totally un-Japanese to knuckel down to another culture.

You are saying how inferior American bonsai is to the Japanese and others. If this is so, then I dare to say because of poor copying poor copies of poor copies instead of thinking for yourself and finding your own way.

I speak around the world about this art not being a Japanese art but an international art. And guess what; Japanese applaud to that.


best regards
Walter Pall

HB Smith

Walter,

I appreciate what you have said in your response but I do not believe I have interpreted incorrectly. Yes, individuality and finding our own way should be applauded and I do not doubt the Japanese would applaud this. But many comments, especially yours of late, swing the pendulum too far the other direction and encourage us to run before we can even crawl. This is why I fear we will never be as good. We would all be reinventing the wheel in an unguided fashion rather then starting out with some basic bonsai principles and techniques to then branch out from. And when I say start out, I mean spend two to four years of relatively intense study at the minimum before believing I've learned a technique well enough to diverge and call a new way my own.

Walter Pall: "It is against a spirit which does not allow trying out new things without guilt feelings. It is about not being allowed to show something new without the bigots saying that it is not done. It is against the game called 'copying Japanese at all costs', even self humiliation.

I assert that it is just the opposite now. One cannot imply that there is a structured, artistic framework from which we could all build our bonsai basics upon without people crying that we are shoving rules down their throat, and your comments encourage this. Your arguments sing of all freedom and play with no work; it is very seductive. But I bet you put in your share of toil over the years to get to your level.

So what is wrong with emulating the techniques of someone who obviously knows their stuff before moving on? But I can't even get anybody to second my statement that as of today, Japanese bonsai is better than U.S. bonsai. Are we so blinded by our need for individuality that we can no longer recognize quality? And you know what? The Japanese aren't stagnating in 'their rules', they push the limits (always within an artistic framework) and continue to improve. Look at a kokufu book from twenty years ago and then a current one - the difference is blatant.

Howard

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Sincerely,
Howard

www.BonsaiSmiths.net

Carl_Bergstrom

Howard,

I was really trying to stay out of this thread, but you've quoted me so spectacularly out of context that I cannot help but interject a brief few remarks.

1) The sentence that you quoted does not dismiss the rules at all. Rather, it indicates a refuse to force-feed them to the unwilling. Big difference. Furthermore, it is followed immediately by these words:



Hardly an argument against the value of mastering the traditional forms! Here is the entire post and thread




2) If you read any decent-sized sample of what I've written on this board, you'll see that I invariable come down on the side of rock-solid grounding in the fundamentals and in a traditional understanding of this artform.

3) If you knew more about me - how I approach bonsai, how I study, who I study with, what I read and research, etc., you'd see that I practice what I preach in this regard.

While I agree with your basic perspective, I resent being painted in colors that I do not wear.

Best regards,
Carl

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In love with trees