Studying Japanese Bonsai Is WRONG!!!

HB Smith

Or so I feel when reading posts on bonsai forums. If I learn a concept by studying with a Japanese bonsai artist, or study a Kokufu book and note a pattern or quality about the style and technique, I certainly do not feel welcome to share this view with the internet public unless I disguise its origins and heaven forbid I call it a rule.

Anytime somebody references a Japanese aesthetic, it has to be justified in some way. What the hell is going on here??!! Why does a Japanese aesthetic reference on a bonsai forum have to be defended or justified? I don't understand!

I have yet to see anybody "break the rules" and present trees better than the Japanese. I would venture that a majority of the readers of this forum are in the novice or beginner category of bonsai. What are the rest of us doing encouraging people not to learn from those that are at the top of this artform? Why is there such a need to get out from the shadow of the Japanese? Why do bonsai period? Any potted tree is imitating bon-sai. I really feel this needs to be explored by all of us.

Howard

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Earl

HB, I can only guess that you are purposely throwing out this arugument to elecit some kind of repsonse, not because you have been following this forum for very long. I have been on here more or less from the beginning. I can't think of one person with any knowledge or know-how that would say "don't study or learn from Japanese bonsai masters or artists." True, there are many who are seeking to develop their own styles, but none who would deny the importance of learning the rules from the Japanese (and I should add, the Chinese, the originators of bonsai or penjing).

In fact, everybody I know of any artistic merit on this forum would argue that you must learn the rules and you must study the masters of Japan. So I would suggest you look a little closer at past forums and see just how much this is so before you make such sweeping judgments.

Earl

pdbbonsai

Wha? Huh?

I have been on this forum awhile now. Been into bonsai awhile as well. I am a student of bonsai, mostly self taught, because there are no schools of bonsai here in Noreast Mn, and I cant afford to take time away from my family and go to Japan to study with a master.....but if I could.....I still wouldnt. Is that because I think that the Japanese way of Bonsai blew with the wind? NO, far from it.

I began my love of bonsai in Japan. No Joke. Stationed there, I was introduced to the fine of art of Bonsai...not just "Japanese" bonsai, but BONSAI. And beautiful they were. Sure, the artists were Japanese. But it was their art that pulled me into this world.

In the US, I have found collections in Florida, Colorado, and here in Minnesota that all capture that feeling I had when I first saw the ancient trees in Japan. Not one of these artists were taught by any school or Master for that matter. Two were self taught. The other was taught by an American Master from California.


And I agree whole heartedly with Earl. Period.

Paul

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HB Smith

Earl,

You must be in massive denial, or you are reading a different forum. I have only begun posting recently but have been monitoring the forum for quite some time now, and if there are any broadsweeping themes to the posts, then it is do NOT follow the rules, especially if they are Japanese rules. Let's have some HONEST discussion.

Howard

pdbbonsai

Howard,

I am not sure, but can you do us all a favor, and list all the threads and link them, so that we can honestly have a discussion here. I cant seem to find the threads you speak of, cept of course the threads Andy whips up, but then again, THOSE are honest discussions.

Paul

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BonsaiTalk is one good place. (me)

K.A. Rutledge

I'm sure it is no surprise to anyone here, but gee whiz, Howard is saying what I've been thinking. Earl, this place (love it, though I do) is rife with anti-Japanese, anti-rule, anti-dogma sentiments. Do you read any of the posts here?

Surely many of us bonsai enthusiasts agree with part of what you're saying, that many of us start out appreciating the Japanese examples, but if you spend any time here or on some other discussion forums, it is quickly becoming P.C. to decry the Japanese example, Japanese conventions or rigid dogma even for beginners. You're claims of "none of us deny the importance of learning from the Japanese..." simply don't hold water.

Just ask a few of the membership around here. ;-) They'll tell ya'.

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
www.bonsai365.com/
zone 8, Texas

Earl

If you read my statement carefully, I said any person on this forum with knowledge or know-how. I don't deny there are some with anti-dogma sentiments, just that most who know what they are doing, do so with a firm grounding and support of tradition.

Andy, as one who is certainly knowledgable, you are indicative of what I am saying. Some people may disagree with what you have to say, but I'm sure that the overwhelming response (read the current thread about stands) is one of agreement.

Andy or Howard, how about a pole? You guys word it anyway you want. I maintain that the overwhelming number of people don't have "anti-Japanese, anti-rule, anti-dogma sentiments." (to quote Andy) Those are in the minority.

Earl

Jayde

I love these threads, not to entice argument, but to hear others express their thoughts... It seems to almost draw a political line between enthusiast's and their mentality. If you are more conservative then you are probably going to stick closer to the rules, more liberal then you are going to strike off on your own... There seems to be no apparent swaying of either sides opinion.

If I remember correctly, Didn't Rembrandt have a bunch of students learning how to paint underneath him? These students mass produced pictures that were labeled with the name Rembrandt, and apparently were hard to tell whether or not Rembrandt himself painted the pictures or not? What does that have to do with anything? Well apparently the rules of Rembrandt's styles were so well learned by his students that you can not tell the masters work from the students... Then along comes a guy called Vincent Vangough who had his own style, then Picasso who totally blew things out of the water with Modern Art, even if you don't like Modern Art, you must say he gave things a different look, although in Highschool he would have probably flunked Art class in his day because he didn't do things by normal convention... So hears my point, would we not do well in calling Bonsai that follows the rules to a closer extent Classical Bonsai, and that which breaks the rules for artistic expression Modern Bonsai? That is to say that there is no right or wrong, just adherance to the classical definitions of what Bonsai is, versus what some today are creating through their own artstic expressions? As for myself today I want to learn under Rembrandt, maybe later when I get Bored I will want to go study under Picasso...

Jay

Howard, Andy and others, let me give you my 2 cents. I have been 'doing' bonsai for less than five years. I am a novice with a little (read little with small letters) knowledge. I enjoy my trees and looking at the works of others, both masters and those more advanced than I. My trees are progressing with the knowledge I have obtained through books, demos, and lectures. Some of these were taught by traditional artists others were not.

A few givens to me:
1- This forum does have a high percentage of novice members, most eager to learn.
2- When we are young (or new to something) we very often try to push the limits of what is the norm (remember the teenage years).
3- Something that has been developed for years (centuries) by others (Japanese and Chinese) has managed to weed out the bad and keep the good.
4- Exploration of new ground is not a bad thing, but does not neccessarily always come out positive (or negative).
5- Challenging the norm-rules-conventions will only make them stronger, or show where they can be altered.
6- etc etc

My 2 cents
Jay

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