Modern Learning Tools

Marie1uk

[QUOTE=rockm]" The dilletant factor is huge online. The teleconference you're participating in may be lead by someone with a few years of bonsai expereince and very little knowledge of what he or she is doing. Happens all the time here...
QUOTE]

However, at the other end of the scale you have people like Brent, Walter Pall and Hans V meer who have probably more experience than many people you would ever meet normally. In Walter's article about choosing the right stock and the mistakes people make at this stage I am sure many people now look at raw material with new eyes and the lollipop pines with bulging grafts now go into gardens rather than growing on beds. The only other way you would have to learn this lesson is to make the same identical mistakes as he made - losing probably a decade of wasted development time in the process ....

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bwaynef

I think the point Rockm's making is that unless and until someone is pretty well versed in bonsai they won't know who any of those people are. In the meantime they're likely to think they know as much or more than those people and consider them fair game to debate with (not that they aren't.) Also, they're just as likely to take the word of someone with no experience and no trees for that matter with just as high of regard as those you mentioned.

WF

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© 2004 - present bwaynef

gordonb

One only needs to hang around here (or IBC) to encounter these people- in a relatively short space of time. As to taking the wrong advice, most posters with limited experience say so ( "I've only been doing bonsai for x years, but..."), but mostly the first thing we need to impart to newcomers, is the need for patience.
"Lord, give me patience, right now!"
Mind you, I hung out in the background here for a couple of months before I posted for the first time.

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gordonb

New Zealand/Aotearoa

"On the other hand, I have different fingers"

bwaynef

You and I understand how exemplary their work is. I'll admit though that it took me a while to realize that having a trunk bigger than 2 inches wasn't simply grotesque immoderation. Sometimes theres even a reason for it. Most people with a burgeoning interest have a hard time changing their notion of what bonsai is. When they see a huge maple in a pot, they can't understand why it doesn't look like their golden brown juniper on the tv. Then they start arguing. It happens ALL the time. Techniques provide an even better discussion. Soil? There are finer details like hard pruning, trunk chopping (what if I just grow it in a progressively larger pot until the trunk gets as thick as I want.)

I recall several threats from some in the same league to those mentioned above (or close at least, in my opinion) of their stopping fighting these inane battles with newbies (their word usually, i hate it) who know better without anymore experience than their dead juniper afforded them before it started hurting their fingers when they'd pinch it. I seem to recall WP getting embroiled in a battle with a newcomer not too long ago, but I can't find the thread right now.

All I'm saying (and my interpretation of Rockm) is that each of us can post with equal authority as those with much more talent and experience. It takes a while before someone new is able to discern who has talent, insight, or experience.

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© 2004 - present bwaynef

RonMartin(deceased)

Whenever I see some one giving advise the first thing I do is to go and tale a peak at their gallery. See if their trees back up the quality of the advise that they give.
All to often they don't have anything to show.
I also read their profile. That I guess could be faked but when it is it usually shows.

bonsaial1

I have spent most of the night compiling a list of all the threads I have written that are worth reprinting here. There are many more. This list is linked to the articles and is somewhat indexed for reference. What I feel is nice about this list is that most of the work here is documented by pictures I have taken through some of the pocesses that have shown the bonsai grow from basic beginnings to more finished pieces.

My hope is that there will be more writing of this sort over the coming years and more from some of our more outspoken senior members.

Thanks for 6 years of bonsai, Al Keppler

Artistry Discussions
Education vs. Repetition
The Fine Line Of "Natural Vs. Classical"
Art Bonsai Art
Poll: C-note Burning A Hole
Poll: Doing Bonsai In The 'Perfect World'
So... You Want To Be A Player Ehhh...
Poll: The Bonsai Exhibit Paradigm
Real Bonsai Stuff Here, Come At Your Own Risk
Artistry In Bonsai: A Simpleton's View
When Artistry Interferes with Objectivity
The Art Of Bonsai
Six Degrees Of Separation?
Artistic Licence?
Critical Eye
R-E-S-P-E-C-T

Bonsai Techniques
Chop! Chop!
Pomegranate cutting
Chopped Trunk Designs
Trunk Chopping for Improving Trees-Part II
The best way to make good shohin
Advanced Technique: Drastic Root Pruning
ADVANCED TECHNIQUE: Guy Wires
Beginning Bonsai ( some hints and kinks)
Water and land equal mud
Self Critique Al Keppler
A new Future...Ron Martin Crtique II
Shimpaku Juniper (Redux)
Watering 101
Backyard Renovation (part II)
Small Tree, BIG FUTURE
Forum Project: Shimpaku Juniper
PROJECT GARDENIA: Neagari Style
Japanese Black Pine - Cascade Style
Last Juniper
Keeping Just The Tops?
Two Scenarios To Ponder
Han-Kengai The Hard Way.
Why Is My Tree Lopsided?
Are These Anygood?
Funeral-pyra
PROJECT: Olive
PROJECT: SHIMPAKU II (yea I'm Back)
Double Trunk Maple
Club Meeting- Unwrapping A Present
Piggy Back Juniper
Shimpaku, Redesign
New Look For An Old Friend
And Now, A Word On Nebari
Five for the future
Shohin Black Pine
Getting A Tree Ready For A Show
The Last Frontier: Ugly Rootball
OK, Let's Talk About Roots
Major juniper project
Wholly Cr@p, My backyard stinks!
Shohin Trident
PROJECT-Hornbeam
Defoliation Day

Bonsai Artistry with Trees
MOSS, its more than just a touch of green under the tree!
PROJECT- Hornbeam II
Sumo Trident
PROJECT- Trident Maple III
California Juniper: Second Styling
Carving Prep
BABA Nebari - Inspiration
Anatomy Of A Andy Jackson Tree
Species Spotlight: Myrtus communis
Juniper's again?
Specimen boxwood
Mini Shimpaku
PROJECT: Land/Water Penjing



Building Stands
tableTALK
BUDGET BONSAI: DIY Stands
BUDGET BONSAI: DIY Stands II
Shohin Tables
A few stands for me this time
A table for Will Heath
Annistand
Turning A Major Grafting Scar Into A Bonsai Stand?
DIY Photo Backdrop
Ahh... The Smell Of Fresh Cut Wood...
Hexamashelf Backachesis
STANDING All By Myself
Just "standing" Around....
Outdoor Stands for Bonsai
New stand, How-to-101


Opinion
Formal Display
Preparing For Fall Show Season
The Natural World and Bonsai
Bonsai, Art, and the big picture
American Bonsai Style? or just good ole American Influance
A Question of Attitude
Poll: Is Bonsai Divisive?
Artistry vs. Drama "connection"?
Pair of Shoes , Up for Grabs
Tree in a pot…or not!
Crikey, there's dues?
Poll: Let's Get Serious, Are You Addicted?
If I had an extra 75K laying around!
BONSAI/STYLES - The big picture
Balancing on the Razor's Edge
Demonstration: If given the chance...
Discussion Forum (Just what does this mean?)
Poll: Artistic Bonsai Design (a Poll)
The tale of the pot and the soil
How Do You Measure Up?
The Turning Point
COOKIE CUTTER BONSAI: Where's The Justice
"The Written Word" Facts Or Pics?
Learning Comes With A Price?
In Pursuit II,... Who Do You Want To Train With?
Poll: Is Bonsai in Decline?
The BonsaiTALK Experience
Undisputable Truths
Import Versus Domestic?
Gender Bias
Serious About Bonsai, Or Are You?
Poll: Chinese or Japanese, Who Does it Right?
Nature's Yose-ue
In a perfect world
Central Coast Oddities
Who's growing the futures bonsai stock.

Humor
They Can Send A Man To The Moon, But Can't Make A Decent Carving Tool!
Self Examination (a game)
Blue Collar Bonsai, Or Why There Is No Artistry In Bonsai..
Memory Lane (the Hard Way)
Secrets Of The Orient Revealed (advertisment)
Crazy from the heat!!!



Exhibits
GSBF Convention 2004

Suiseki
What is Suiseki
Dai Hard?
I Cut It! Nah Nah Nah Nahhhh...

Collecting
California Juniper Transformation
Collecting California Juniper
Carving Practise
California Juniper, ready for some new work.
Alternative Lifestyle, California Juniper
Mojave Junipers (A Dig)
Mojave Bound, Juniper Found

Nursery Tours
Southern Cal. Nursery Tour
Nursery Tour Part II
Poll: California Nursery Tour (part III)
A Leg Up On The Buying Game
Maruyama Bonsai Nursery

EDIT: sorry I thought this would provide links since thats the way they were saved. When I tranfered it here they showed up as just text. If anyone would like a word copy just PM me with you email. They will copy and paste into the search tool.

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If you can't be a player...be an athletic supporter!

sauce

Hi Al, I will be taking you up on your generous offer. Your contributions to this site are incomparable! There are quite a few very knowledgeable and helpful members here that I truly respect and admire but you get to the guts of Bonsai so to speak, not only giving advice but taking the countless hours to show us what you speak of. Of course others have as well but not necessarily to the extent and time you have offered. I must mention that Grampz AKA Mr. Behr has done some impressionable, educational and time consuming articles as well. I believe Palmbanks that you are looking into the future when knowledge and time spent posting on the internet can be remunerated, something like pay per view on cable tv? After all Masters and teachers don't give free demos or workshops, not to mention most members here have day jobs as well.

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"Yesterday is history, tomorrow is a mystery, and today is a gift; that's why they call it the present." Eleanor Roosevelt (1884-1962) Thanks for the flag Zen!

rockm

"One only needs to hang around here (or IBC) to encounter these people- in a relatively short space of time."

Yeah, true, and some people who have about 10 minutes of "experience" in bonsai will argue every single point "these people" make--repeatedly.
Bwaynef said it quite well. I'm constantly amazed at how some newbies (and they probably aren't the majority, but they certainly can be vocal) will argue and argue and argue in the face of a list of facts and actual experience--even photos-- presented by others.

The Internet is a supplemental source of knowledge and shouldn't be taken as "real" experience, nor used as the primary source of learning. It's not anymore actual experience than playing fantasy baseball or football is playing in MLB or in the NFL. In those sports, you can construct theoretical teams and manage them just like in the pros. You can probably do pretty well--on paper--even if you haven't ever picked up a baseball or football in your life. Doesn't make you Joe Gibbs or Frank Robinson though...

palmbanks

TBH rockm, you have sat and pulled what i have said apart, based purely upon your own opinions of me. You have absolutly no knowledge of my experiance in bonsai.

Not once have i said that i am useing this as a sole source of learning, i have not stated which clubs and societies i belong to, nor who i study with. You simply decided i was a "newbie" and have then failed to read and respond to what i have actually put in my posts.

This was never about my level of bonsai, nor was it about useing this as a sole source of information, and if you re read the content, it should be blatantly obvious that it isnt. Its about the next steps in communication and learning, and what possibilities there are in the modern world. It has something absolutly nothing to do with me, your the one who took it there.

Its a shame that you judge people the way you appear to do, and make assumtions based on nothing. Is this forum exclusive for people who have had over a ceratin amount of experiance in bonsai? If so please advise where it states that. Or do you truly think that anyone not on your level doesnt deserve to be treated in a polite and fair manner?

horse, climb, off, high, your.............. make a sentance

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