Modern Learning Tools

palmbanks

Hi all,

This thread : http://forum.bonsaitalk.com/showthread.php?t=19483 is one of the best threads i have read on here in along time. It has inspired questions in my head that arnt exactly linked to the content of that thread, and so not to hijack, or ruin a quality running discussion i thought i would ask them in a new thread.

What i would like to discuss, if you lot are game, is where in the relationship of Bonsai Eduction does a forum like this fall?

It was said that having one teacher will only teach you how to think like them, and how to do what they do, but wont drive you to do something different. It was discussed that seeking information and guidance from more than one source is key in order to truly develop Bonsai, both as an individual, and as an art form in general.

Therefore, something like this should be a boling pot of bonsai knowledge and ideas. There is an absolute abundance of higly respected Bonsai people on this board, from all over the world. People with 2 months experiance, and people with decades. Some here are lucky enough to have studied with some of the greats or have had trees in highly prized exibitions. Sadly though (and i feel i am to be flamed for saying this) the knowledge does not seem to be being presented on this forum, and others like it, to the potential it could be.

An example is the "Bonsai tips and tecniques" section of this forum. The majority of it is people posting up pictures of there tree, with a problem, and then people responding with a few sentences advising what they would do, or what needs to be done. There are very few well documented examples of tecniques listed, along with photographs of the steps taken during the process. Detailed notes of how, what and why seem to be absent.

Granted, you can only respond to the question being asked, but am i the only one who thinks that that section is not really intended for asking questions on techniques specific to your individual tree, but more for finding info on tecniques in general?

Also with before and after shots of stylings. Here it is before i styled it. Here it is after.... what do you think? I think id like to know exaclty how you changed the position of that thick branch, or how that deadwood was created. Bending a major branch is hours of work, and cannot be summed up in 3 minutes while writing a few sentances, witout insulting the work done to the tree.

What i want to know is if the lack of the above due to the restrictions of the forums, or the desire of the posters? Do forums, and other internet based learning tools provide what is required for us to be able to share, teach and learn techniques with others, or is actual live instuction (bonsai group or teacher) the only way to do this. Can this forum be a sensi/master/teacher to us all? If not what is missing, what can be imporved, or why can it never be an adeqaute substitution for formal tutoring?

With forums like this, are the best Bonsai technique books yet to be written from content and ideas formed from sites like this?

** Please do not flame me for the above thoughts and opinions, i am not trying to cause any controversy, i am only seeking understanding, if anyone takes offence to anything above, i can assure you it is unintentional, i am terrible at wording things when i am typing with passion**

__________________

Advertisement

RonMartin(deceased)

No flame intended here just an observation. Do you actually realize what you are asking those “masters” you are talking about. How much work you are asking them to do.



The above is a tall order.

It has been done on some things on this forum. Bonsaial is probably the one most noted for these writings. He has done quite a few of them.

It is a lot of work putting those things together and he is to be commended for it.

Most people come to these forums for one of two reasons.

1. Entertainment.

2. Getting a quick answer because :

a) It is free

b) Because they don’t have the time to read a book or take classes.

Nothing wrong with these reasons but there is two sides to every story.

It is free because some of us are willing to share what we have learned. Actually in most cases knowledge we have forked over good money to obtain. Classes, books etc. are not free

The big reason though is time. I find it hard to put enough time aside to do what you ask. I have just about as much time to devote to this as you do. My time (and funds) are probably limited by the same things as yours is.

A quick short answer is about all that I normally have time to give is short answers.

Hopefully you will understand that I am not flaming you. Just trying to explain the personal cost you are asking a few to take.

I am going to repeat your closing lines. Hopefully they will apply to my comments as much as they do to yours.

bwaynef

I might be echoing Ron's sentiments...but I think another reason people don't, regularly, give detailed how-to pic-intensive posts are because they like doing bonsai, not necessarily taking pictures, typing, or, gasp, formatting.

Its pretty time-intensive to do what you're asking, and often enough we'll have someone that bothers. I don't think its can realistically be expected for this to happen by everyone all of the time though. Usually all they've got time for is a few short sentences, or a link to someone else whose already done the work of typing.

WF

__________________
----------------------------------
© 2004 - present bwaynef

rockm

"Sadly though (and i feel i am to be flamed for saying this) the knowledge does not seem to be being presented on this forum, and others like it, to the potential it could be."

"Do forums, and other internet based learning tools provide what is required for us to be able to share, teach and learn techniques with others, or is actual live instuction (bonsai group or teacher) the only way to do this"

Not to flame you, but the experienced folks that post here aren't getting anything in return for their input--although some get alot of grief for their efforts .

They have put in a tremendous amount of their own time and resources to learn what they have. That path has not closed. If you are truly interested, widen the avenue of your learning. Get past using only the Internet as a learning tool--OF COURSE it doesn't provide all the information you need. WORKING WITH SOMEONE IN PERSON IS VASTLY SUPERIOR to Internet learning.

As for forums not reaching their potential, um, send a check to cover the costs to make them... I submit that the Internet is a great supplement to personal and other forms of "traditional" learning, and not a primary one. Use it as a sole source at your peril.

agraham

Palm,

I'll take another tack.

For the ones who are interested....ask questions.Read one of these styling threads and ask very specific questions.Most people in here who are doing them will be glad to answer them.It takes a lot of time to include step by step running commentary.It takes less time to post the general ideas and procedures.I'd much rather have a conversation with those interested in one of my trees than to write a book.This forum avails us of the opportunity to have conversations...not in real time perhaps...but,to follow along and ask questions,give suggestions and make comments.

Depending on the stylers ego ,I think most would enjoy a give and take.Some of the people whose work you enjoy may even learn something from the less experienced if the right questions are asked(they may not admit it though~LOL~)

You get out what you put in.Remember,the ones who post a tree styling sequence are putting their work out there...they are risking something.Risk something yourself.Risk your time,your ego......ask questions,be specific.Make comments,give your true opinion.

andy

__________________
http://pittmandavis.com/

grampz

Mr. palmbanks,

Mr. Ron and Mr. Mark have given some excellent thoughts on your inquiry...It does take a great deal of time to stop what your doing pick up a camera and take photos as you work on a tree...Then even more time to sort for quality, get over the fact that some photos were not of a sufficient quality to illustrate your most important point, accept the fact that you forgot to take some important photos that you really needed to properly show your method, and process those photos for uploading to a forum...You then spend hours or days attempting to cover things that you often take as routine but if eliminated gives the forum 'that won't work' people an opportunity to discount your entire process and criticize your efforts to the point it leaves your methods in doubt...

It is most certainly not worth the 'hassle' for things that are covered elsewhere such as books, other internet forums, or bonsai periodicals...

IF, one has developed a process that they feel is considerably different than previously published, or a different technique than the accepted methods, it often takes years of photos and records to sufficiently illustrate that the process will actually work...Walter Pall recently posted a pine at IBC which he cut over half way through the trunk to achieve some very sharp bends...He did take the 'CYA' approach stating that he had performed this process about 10 times, but it should only be attempted on stock that didn't have other options, because it was certainly NOT fail safe...He even left an 'option' branch on the tree just in case...

With the many 'nay-sayers' on the internet forums it is often best to only share 'unusual' techniques with those that are 'truly willing' to listen and learn...This is most often determined through personal instruction, or really getting to know people...


Good words...When used as a supplement to other ways of learning the internet forums can be extremely valuable...I feel very confident in stating I have learned more faster through the internet in the last 3 years than all of the other years in bonsai combined...But, I did have a very important ‘background’ of knowledge of things that will and won’t work to be able to decide what information gained from the internet was useful to me...

Regards
Behr

__________________
As the Master departed the workshop,
he could have sworn he heard some
one saying rather loudly...
"I thought he would never leave"
San Antonio Bonsai Society, Inc.

meushi

I'm pretty new at bonsai

I learned a lot by perusing a few forums (mainly BT and the french equivalent). The wealth of knowledge shared by the "masters" is amazing. It would have taken me ages to find out what works and what doesn't by myself. A few months ago, I was killing my trees by using junk soil passed as "bonsai soil"... now I'm experimenting with different mixes that give nice results in my climate. Some of my twigs have actually visibly increased caliper thanks to the soil discussions

The french equivalent of BT has taken a different approach to share the knowledge. For example, they currently have multiple "workshops" (threads) going on. The subjects are quite broad: our work on trees, soils, feeding, watering, going from potensai to bonsai, jin & shari, traditional japanese pottery making, ...

Those threads are not made in one go, they are interactive (and sometimes anarchic). The "master" starts the thread and leaves some blanks, then the members try to fill those blanks, he then checks back when he feels like it and steers the members back on track when necessary. Everybody can contribute, but if you want to ask questions you'd better do some research and provide pictures

It feels more like a class than a thread and forces everyone to do some research. All of those workshops are steered by one person and two assistants. In real life, that person does bonsai (including a lot of yamadori), pottery and workshops full time.

Maybe a similar concept could be used here on BT

Mike

palmbanks

Hi guys,

The referances to this forum and threads contained within it were just examples. In no way am i trying to down talk this forum or any user of it. Also im more than aware of the problems with detailing and documenting while working on trees. Ive already broken two cameras while trying to do 2 things at once.

As the topic states, my questions relate to modern technologies and how they are, can, or will change the way in which bonsai can be taught and discussed.

20 years ago, internet was alien to almost all, and email was unheard of. You had a house phone if you were lucky because mobiles wernt around. Everything that was audio or visual was analouge.

A barrier of effective learning is communication problems. And in this day and age, communication on a global scale is easy in numerous ways, from phone, email, and other things like Skype, which is currently being utilised on this site.

Its actually possible now for things like live interactive workshops over the internet. I havent seen those kind of technologies utilised in bonsai yet, but if thought out well it could be a very interesting experiance, and powerful learning tool. Im not implying that this forum should try to do something like this, as you have said, people come here for other reasons than education.

Im just suprised it isnt being done by anyone as yet, and am wondering if im the only one who thinks this.

__________________

rockm

"Im just suprised it isnt being done by anyone as yet, and am wondering if im the only one who thinks this."

All of the communications options you have mentioned take time and money... Which are pretty big obstacles for people who just want to brag about how they work on their trees

Also, for what it's worth, all of the digitized instruction that technology has made possible simply does not compare to actually getting out of the house and doing bonsai with someone who knows what they're doing. Seeking out and joining a local bonsai club is a far better, more economical, and rewarding thing than relying on the latest virtual reality design for your newly purchased bonsai...

For all it's advantages, digital communications can never hope to provide as much instruction--or motivation for instruction--as simply doing bonsai and talking with people face to face. In this day of hugely advanced telecommunications capabilities, there is a growing illusion that the technology can make everything easier and/or better. Simply not true. In fact, I think the opposite is happening. What happens online is a vast leveling out of everyone's opinions with no way to verify their abilities. Everyone is quick to argue fine points, which they may actually know nothing about. The dilletant factor is huge online. The teleconference you're participating in may be lead by someone with a few years of bonsai expereince and very little knowledge of what he or she is doing. Happens all the time here...

I again note that if you're relying on the Internet for all your bonsai information and instruction, or hoping someone else will come along and implement a program that will make you vastly better at bonsai, you're probably working on an illusion.