Education vs. Repetition - bonsaiTALK Community

9-Jul-2006

#21

hansvanmeer

bonsaiTALK Master Craftsman

Join Date: May-2005

Country: The Netherlands

Posts: 965

[QUOTE=Candy_J_Shirey]Al, I respectfully submit that your friend is very egocentric. The beauty of a tree is inherent to the tree - not the creator or the tree. If everyone felt this way about bonsai, there would be no old specimens handed down from previous generations.

Quote:

As this is very personal to me, i will wright down what i believe and how i see my self as a bonsai artist, so nobody pleas be offended, it is simply what i believe and the only way it has and will work for me.

I also believe that I only feel happy with a bonsai that I styled and made myself. I have been doing bonsai right from the beginning on my one, no lessons only books, books and more books. As soon as i got hungry for finding/ collecting , creating , and showing bonsai i knew that it was my thing to a total state of happiness. Don't get me wrong, I allso made some nice bonsai from imported pre trained trees, i even showed them and won prices. But there was almost no pride in it for me, no real sadisfaction. Those few bonsai that i styled that way are the only once of my better bonsai i will sell with out thinking twice about it. I want to have the excitement, all the excitement off bonsai, every step in making a bonsai, from finding to showing, is just to good to miss!
I see it this way:
There are probably better lovers out there, but if it's OK with you, i rather keep my precious wive all for my self! Call this egocentric if you will, i call it doing it just my way! I make my own decisions, i make my own mistakes to learn from and if i some times succeed, i had all the satisfaction of creating a thing off beauty, a thing off interest even maybe art? Why is there always such a strong reaction to this approach to bonsai? I think me and others have proven that it works, it dos not harm bonsai or anybody else? I am my self a teacher, so it would be in my own interest to tel you AL that you should get as much help as you can because it is the only right thing to do! But than i would be lying! It is only the sensible thing to do, not the only thing! Lessons are good, lessons are fun and are for 99.9 % off the bonsai people out there the best way to go! But sorry: not for me, i did and do it my way.

[QUOTE]

There is great pleasure in designing a beautiful bonsai but that feeling, in my opinion, should be the outward enjoyment of the tree - not the inward self-centered fullfillment of the designer of the tree.
[QUOTE]

My self-centered feeling that i feel creating the bonsai is what made the bonsai. No one else, just me and the tree, my feelings and the tree, my ideas and the tree, my art and my partner the tree becomes: bonsai! And from that comes fulfillment.

[QUOTE]

If you had a magnificient bonsai on your bench, would it be less magnificient if you did not create it? Can you not enjoy the beauty of another's artistry? Would you cast it from your collection?

It's all about the tree.

[QUOTE]

No it would maybe even be more magnificent if i did not created it, but i am a creator with a very small garden. Not a bonsai art collector!
Off course I enjoy other artist work, i tribe on other artist work, they are my teachers, i see there mistakes and brilliancy in my books and in all the show and gardens i visit. I see now need to have them in my garden. I rather try to make them myself.

[QUOTE]

... it is never really his? More egocentrism? We are all just caretakers.

[QUOTE]

Please, stop with those ( in our western society) meaningless Japanese philosophies, they don't make your or our bonsai hobby any more interesting. I make and take care off bonsai, nothing more nothing less.

[QUOTE]

It's all about the tree.

[QUOTE]

That i like to make all myself, that's the only deference!

[QUOTE]

I agree. It is a personal journey between man and tree. The end product is the tree... It's all about the tree!

[QUOTE]

I'm allso a great believer: bonsai is a personal journey between men and tree! The only difference is: that i like to make my one arrangements for the trip!

[QUOTE]

Why is it about Al Keppler? It is wonderful to strive for your own style but why not strive for a wonderful tree?

It's all about the tree!

[QOUTE]

What if my own style makes for a wonderful bonsai? Should i not make it than, because i might be called egocentric!?

[QUOTE]

It's all about the tree...

I prefer: It's all about bonsai! Men+tree=Bonsai.

Stop being so judgemental about an other person bonsai approach, Judges the end results. Than you might see that you are the one that is egocentric in your firm bonsai believes, and are not learning any more!
With all respect,
Hans.

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9-Jul-2006	#22
agraham bonsaiTALK Master Chief Join Date: Jan-2004 Location: South Texas Country: U.S.A. USDA Zone: 9-10 AHS Heat Zone: 11 Posts: 1,195	I love these threads!!!!! Dale, hey! I represent that!......Dale....."I TRIED to learn bonsai by myself for about 8 years and found it doesn't work" Actually i agree with you.A teacher,someone to hold you acountable is imperative.Friends are too damn nice . .................................................. .................................................. .... Hans, I think you might be the exception.Your talent speaks for itself.No matter how you came upon it. .................................................. .................................................. .... Candy, I,too would be a collector of great bonsai if I could afford someone to look after them.The maintenance is the least interesting part of bonsai to me.I enjoy most of all the planning and inspiration that sometimes comes from no where.For me,the process is the inspiration.I may be biased though,in that my collection is made up of tropicals.As fast as they develop....they deteriorate just as fast if not constantly groomed.The plus and minus of tropical bonsai . andy __________________ http://pittmandavis.com/

9-Jul-2006

#23

cbobgo

Dances With Trees

Join Date: Jul-2004

Location: Lake County California

Country: USA

USDA Zone: 8-9

AHS Heat Zone: 7-8

Posts: 573

Quote:

Formal training is something that cannot be duplicated by any other means except to fly to Japan or enlist the tutelage of a Japanese Bonsai Master living in your own country.

Is this really the only way to have formal training? Are there not bonsai masters who are not Japanese and have formal students? I think you are being a little restrictive in your definition of formal training, if it can only take place in Japan or under the instruction of someone who is Japanese.

- bob

__________________
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9-Jul-2006

#24

hansvanmeer

bonsaiTALK Master Craftsman

Join Date: May-2005

Country: The Netherlands

Posts: 965

Quote:

Originally Posted by Attila

This is a very interesting aspect of bonsai. And it says so much about the person...

If someone insists that he owns trees that are exclusively styled by himself, that makes me very suspicious about his motives of pursuing bonsai. If a person likes a particular tree but it bothers him that the tree was styled by someone else, this sounds like selfish, egocentrical, envy, ambition, and similar character traits are high on this person's list. I he cannot dissociate himself from the bonsai and enjoy the tree for what it's worth, he's got issues.

.

Well there we go again, Attila! judgmental as always! If making nice bonsai in your own way is"HAVING ISSUES" i'm glad I have them!
Hans

9-Jul-2006	#25
agraham bonsaiTALK Master Chief Join Date: Jan-2004 Location: South Texas Country: U.S.A. USDA Zone: 9-10 AHS Heat Zone: 11 Posts: 1,195	geez guys............. To each their own.Some of us practice bonsai for the creative aspect of it,or the relaxing part of it,or even the frustrating maddening challenge of it.To say that some one who wouldn't enjoy owning a masterpice designed by someone else as much as a creating a marginal little tree of our own,does not mean that the masterpice is not admired and appreciated.If it's about the tree...it matters not where the tree is. andy __________________ http://pittmandavis.com/

9-Jul-2006	#26
bonsaial1 Bonsai Doer Join Date: Aug-2001 Location: Fresno, CA Country: USA USDA Zone: 9 AHS Heat Zone: 13SH Posts: 5,371	Excellent...(wringing hands)..Excellent! __________________ A tree a day...thats all we ask.

9-Jul-2006	#27
Dkozi bonsaiTALK Artisan Join Date: Nov-2004 Location: Chicago area Country: U.S.A. USDA Zone: 5 AHS Heat Zone: ? Posts: 121	This is an excellent thread. I think to ask such a question asks if we really honor masters the way we all would like to honor them. It also opens up the idea of Art and honoring the artist we like not nessasrily just any master who is a master of bonsai. Many many ideas are flowing but in paraphrasing from a quote I saw here A bonsai being the sum of all the idiots who've worked on it.... I like the idea of working on a tree that someone else has worked on. To me it is like continuing the music another mucian has just handed off in a jam session. However this also brings up who the tree really belongs to and who belongs to who. Can you really own a tree after you've passed on. Do you own the trees you have now or do they own you? Two hundred years from now no one will likely know or more than likely care who in particular worked on a particular tree of mine because I will likely never be famous. But I like the idea of knowing an artist by their work and like the idea of wondering about what they were thinking or feeling when they did what they did. Again I can appreciate the idea of being recognized by your work but in bonsai isn't it a funny thing to say that an artist has styled a one thousand or two thousand year old juniper into something? I can appreciate a contribution but ultimately it is more about the trees for me. What have they lived through and how they make me feel. Just a few thoughts-Dkozi

9-Jul-2006	#28
BrianBay9 Trunk Collector Join Date: Sep-2003 Location: Loveland, CO Country: USA USDA Zone: 4 or 5? AHS Heat Zone: ? Posts: 1,363	I have not had many bonsai sensei, but have had several martial arts sensei due to career moves. I have learned something important and unique from every instructor over the years. Sometimes the teachers have fundamental disagreements. Then it is up to me to sort through the differences, and decide what works FOR ME. Frankly, I want to learn from EVERYBODY. Talking with a beginner teaches one to clarify ones thoughts. Talking with a master often means remembering that one golden bit of information among the massive amounts of information that is over your head. One teacher? Everyone I meet is a teacher. I'm a synthesis of all my experiences. Respectfully Brian __________________ There's a difference between taking your art seriously, and taking yourself too seriously.

9-Jul-2006

#29

Pill_Man

A very humble student

Join Date: Jul-2004

Location: Canandaigua, NY

Country: USA

USDA Zone: 6

AHS Heat Zone: ?

Posts: 328

I am a member of the bonsai society that Bill Valavanis founded. Any one of our
members would be in bonsai-heaven having "just" Bill as our main source of
instruction and knowledge. But as he said:

Quote:

In fact, many have commented (including Walter Pall) why we have invited
so many artists to Rochester when they have me and since I personally do not
always agree to the individual artists design, creativity and philosophy on bonsai art.
I think it is important that our members and others hear and see for themselves as
much as possible.

What a kick it is practising bonsai in an environment like the one created by Bill.
And when you think about it... it is the best approach. Otherwise, we'd all be producing
cookie-cutter bonsai in the fashion of the one Master under whom we've studied. The art
of bonsai would never progress and evolve.

__________________
Doug Mlodzinski

My Little Corner of the Internet
Bonsai Society of Upstate NY

9-Jul-2006	#30
Dale Cochoy Old Bonsaiman-new pots Join Date: Dec-2002 Location: Hartville, Ohio Country: USA USDA Zone: 5 AHS Heat Zone: ? Posts: 2,663	RonMartin]Lots of truth to what Dale says. You can learn a lot if you only stop to listen. Good stuff mostly but not always. You just have to sift through all you have learned and find what works. Ron, FYI, I didn't say that. It was a quote from a post by Bill V. Learning can come from surprising sources. Heck I even bought my first Mica pot from Dale at a convention in DC. Didn’t think much of it at the time but I have built a pretty good business based on that one purchase. Now That was a while ago!!. When the two importers were Brussels and Sharon Muth. I was the first to sell them there in DC I believe.. Like HOT CAKES as they say. After a couple years they died down greatly, I see now, that after a pause of a few years they are on the upswing again. I expect that in a few more years the sales will drop until newbies start needing some bigger pots again. That doesn’t have much to do with the art of bonsai just the value of having many teachers. From each one can learn something. Yes, but as I tried to convey earlier, the main word here is TEACHERS, An experienced teacher or teachers is the road to success, not books, your average club, or (gulp) talk groups. Dale __________________ ________________________________ If you want to be Different.... You have to DO something Different! __________________________________________ Some people NEVER take the time to do a job right the first time.... but, they always seem to make the time to do it over again... ____________________________________________ Dale Cochoy Wild Things Bonsai Studio Yakimono no Kokoro Bonsai Pottery Hartville, Ohio

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