California Juniper no. 3.

bonsaikc

I don't think it would be too lush. I like the virts that are so similar with minor differences, except that I might bring the canopy in a little tighter, not so wide.

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grampz

Mr. Al,

First of all thank you for sharing these photos, giving an opportunity to view some wonderful material, and hopefully much educational 'thought processing'...With these trees we are all only expressing an opinion and that is a 'good' thing, because the final decision is yours to make and you are the one that has the pleasure of seeing these trees in real life...I believe I know you well enough to be assured you are not going to base your plan for these trees only on the opinion of others, that have only seen a 2d photo...

Your "California Juniper no. 2" in my opinion should develop into a stunning 'traditional' bonsai with your experienced care and techniques...This one [#3] however [my favorite judging by the photos], has the possibility to become something much different than a 'traditional' bonsai...In the responses between yourself and Mr. Jay [and those between you and Mr. Carl some time ago], I believe there is a very strong underlying factor here that is not really being expressed, and possibly not even being considered...The photos you have posted in post #17 of the 3 outstanding trees, I think explains much in the 'perceived discrepancy' of 'lush' foliage and deadwood...When I look at these 3 examples I do not see a true 'treeness' in them...There is certainly some strong hints that they are indeed trees, however being a tree is not as prominent to me as being a "sculpture"...

If my memory serves me correctly [and it often does not] the discussion between yourself and Mr. Carl was based mostly on the 'story' the tree told...I would like to ask...If it represents a sculpture, 'a work of art', is a 'story' truly necessary?...Do we place too much importance on the "story' or the 'treeness'?...If 'Nature' is our goal then certainly it must look like a tree and have a 'believable' story, but is it necessarily the 'only' way we can have a successful bonsai?...

While I am quite fond of bonsai that do look like 'old , huge, trees in nature', I can also appreciate and accept those that represent an artist view or opinion, those that show how the artist was able to 'showcase' the years nature spent sculpting the material...Tree number #45352 is a wonderful example of this...The 'art', the focal point', the very 'soul', of this tree is not the foliage...But, the foliage does a great job of contrasting, and therefore emphasizing the focal point, which to me is the beautiful 'line and form' that nature has spent decades creating in the deadwood...

I quite agree with Mr. Jay concerning the foliage IF the goal is to create the illusion of a tree, however here you have an opportunity to do something different, something outstanding, and something memorable, if you choose to do so...Just a few more thoughts to add to the confusion...I look forward to seeing how you choose to develop what you have been given the opportunity to work with...


Regards
Behr

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bonsaial1

While reading this question when I got home, I started to think about what it was that I was going to respond to Behr's question. I went in the backyard and started to repot my pyracantha. While doing this I started to look at the tree and began wondering just how many trees I had in my collection that looked like a tree. I looked around at the benches and posts and started to look for the tree like images. To my amazement out of 50 odd trees I had only about 5 that really resembled trees.

I wondered why this may be so. Then it hit me. Most of my collection except for maples are made from shrubs. What I began to notice is that the way a shrub grows it does not really convey a very convicing tree like image. Yes we make a stylised representation of a tree when we do bonsai, but somehow I think Behr was searching for more. I began to look thru as many archives that I have of trees (about 5000 on disk) and started to notice something. For the most part, junipers look like stylised sculptures. I think a juniper styled in a tall thin tree can convincingly look like a tall pine or spruce, but when it gets cut down to an informal upright and some branches and squattiness get thrown in, it just starts looking like the shrub it is. Now I know that may be a rather callous way to look at it, and I can already hear the Pro-Kimura crowd crying "foul". Really take a look at junipers and other shrubs, I think they look like sculpted shrubs more than they look like trees.

Maples and most diciduous trees actually grow like trees. They are apical in their growth habits and send branches up and out. They build canopies if left unchecked and will actually start to look like a tree on their own with no other help. Try that with a juniper or barberry or myrtle or pyracantha for that matter.

So I guess my answer would have to be, I think the pictures I posted of harsh trunks with canopies on them represent stylised images of what a tree might look like if you squint real hard. I think they represent living sculpture better. Maybe that is what I am trying to do to. Time will tell.

This is great, Thanks Mr. Grampz, ak

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grampz

Good points Mr. Al...Could it be, this is what Mr. John Naka was meaning?...Could he have been encouraging us to think 'outside' the 'traditional' bonsai box?...I think so...I believe Mr. John was leading the way to a more 'Western' way of doing trees in pots...

Regards
Behr

__________________
As the Master departed the workshop,
he could have sworn he heard some
one saying rather loudly...
"I thought he would never leave"
San Antonio Bonsai Society, Inc.

sauce

Yeah it is! I love when you old timers, and I am not referring to age, start opining about bonsai. This type of discussion really activates my (old) brain cells. My thanks to you Al and Mr Behr. This has been an interesting thread and Al, you have a pretty darn nice shrub there I am anxious to see where you take it.

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nip

never done a virt, thought Id start with this. Similiar to Al's but less fluffy. Im also trying to follow the tree to the right, while most virts so far have been heavy on the upper left area. I think the multiple deadwood branches flowing left, along with my low left foliage help to balance out the natural "lean" to the right. My virt is not exactly how I want it but I think you'll get the overall idea. Hope it doesnt look too bad.
Edit: forgot to adjust pot accordingly! oh well

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bonsaial1

I think you have zero'ed in pretty good nip. I really like that a lot. I think less is more for this one. That is a good thing since dense foliage on one of these is many years in the making. Please don't worry about pots yet, this is a training pot and you can be sure that when the time is ripe, I will be searching for the proper pot.

( I wonder what Roy Nagatoshi is doing with all those antique Chinese pots he had?)

Cheers, Al

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no.... really!

kcpoole

Very nice Nip and i like it very much.
The virt reminds me of those pictures we see of African Savannah trees. High sparse foliage and gnarly trunks..

Nice


Ken

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grampz

Mr. nip,

This may be your first attempt at a virtual, but you have successfully given this material a more 'treelike' appearance in my opinion...I am beginning to see an old, very large, tree in the distance here...I am hoping Mr. Al will post some more views of this tree with a better background so that we can actually have a better understanding of where the live and dead parts are located, and how the branches come off the trunk...When I look at this virtual I visualize something more like the famous 'bristlecone pines'...Trees that have survived for thousands of years...Trees that have 80 to 90% deadwood, and only enough foliage to maintain life and some additional growth for a few years...Yes Mr. Al, "less is more" is a definite for this tree if you wish to achieve a 'treelike' feeling, which would certainly be a great option for the material...Even less foliage than Mr. nip has shown would increase the 'essence of a tree' that has survived the hardships of nature for centuries...

Of course there is also still the possibility of using the deadwood to create a 'sculpture' as Mr. Kimura is well known for, and allowing the foliage to frame or accentuate the sculpture...

We are indeed fortunate in that Mr. Al has chosen to share the thought process, and allow the forum members here to input their thoughts on developing this tree...This material certainly has the potential to become a world class tree, and it is rare that one has this sort of opportunity...

Regards
Behr

__________________
As the Master departed the workshop,
he could have sworn he heard some
one saying rather loudly...
"I thought he would never leave"
San Antonio Bonsai Society, Inc.