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24-Aug-2006
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#1 |
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Greybeard
 
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Is it the Art of Bonsai, or Bonsai Art?
Is it the Art of Bonsai, or Bonsai Art?
In a rather lengthly conversation back in 2004, A discussion about art came up. The question asked by Carl, “Is this art”? The Kusomono shown had all the earmarks of a very artistic Photo. A Pulitzer Prize winning photo. Artistic Photo’s My argument had to do with the photo being an artistic piece, while the grass planting taken out of the artistic and photo ready environment rendered the grass planting as wonderful craft. My point was seen as trying to somehow take away from this artistic Photo. When we look at a photo, we look at a place in time. The fourth dimension captured on film or disk. Was the photo artistic? Yes the photo was artistic. Is the grass planting still artistic? Who knows. For that moment, Carl captured a very evocative image on film. He created art with the photo, not the grass. He could have just as easily have planted the grass in the container the moment before he snapped the photo. ( I know he didn’t since I posted an earlier photo of the same composition) Carl made art with how he displayed not by how he grew it. The grass grows that way the world over, but not many people will have captured it on film the way he did. Living plants change all the time. Owners change, plants are not cared for in the same way. Bonsai are not looked at in the same way on the bench as they are in a photo. Craftsmen or artist? Consider the titles we give to many aspects of day to day life. The art of bee keeping, The art of beer making, The art of stamp collecting. While all these activities have “The art of” as a prefix, how much art is involved in the actual collecting of stamps. I think in this case as well as the two other examples I have given is in the way the three would be displayed. The art of a bee keeper may be the way he presents his finished product, the honey. The jars, the labels and the way it may be displayed at the local market. Maybe a special cap or a piece of comb in the jar, or a flower from which it was made. The beer maker may have a special bottle blown just for his beer. The label may be a piece of art work on its own and an ongoing, never changing package. The stamp collector may have special cabinets made with back lighting and glass shelves. There may be focal spotlights on very rare stamps. Now in each of these cases I have not mentioned the actual products in these examples. What if the honey is terrible, what if the beer is green and tastes terrible. What if the stamps came from an introductory grab bag of stamps from a toy store. It does not matter! The art is in the display. Oh granted a display is much better if all these things are in the proper order, like tasty beer, clear honey and valuable stamps. In the big picture it is not necessary to have the best to make a wonderful presentation. Would we do ourselves a favor by calling ourselves craftsmen of bonsai untill the proper artistic display is built. I have my feeling on this…. Its time I heard yours. Yours most artistically, Al
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Real men don't wear coats with "happi" in the title. Last edited by bonsaial1 : 24-Aug-2006 at 02:36 AM. |
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Is it the Art of Bonsai, or Bonsai Art? |
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24-Aug-2006
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#2 | |
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Old Mister Crow
 
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Interesting thoughts, Al. I appreciate the chance to revisit this discussion.
Is it art, you asked, and you answered the following (emphasis mine): Quote:
Your post calls attention to the fundamental role of the act of display in art, and here I agree with you entirely. This is critical because it places the object in the context necessary to serve as art, and this distinction not only highlights that, but serves as a nice way to start to characterize the philosophical question of what is art, in that unlike many other attempts at definition, yours helps explain certain cases such as "found art" which otherwise are very difficult to explain as having artistic merit or function. Where I have differed from you (if at all) in the past is in the assertion that the photograph is the art. I'd argue that the planting, displayed, is art, and the photograph is a photograph of that art. But I may have to back away from that argument. What was the display in this case? It was a black backdrop set up in my back yard. Would you display a kusamono to your friends that way? Never! It was set up for the purpose of taking the photograph. I'd say that if I'd set this up in my house, as in the (three-years-old and largely unsuccessful) attempt at indoor display posted below, it would have been (an attempt at) art. Set up for display in front of a suspended backdrop in a way that only looks good in photography, not live --- then you're right, the photo is the art. Thanks for the opportunity to revisit this subject. Best regards, Carl |
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24-Aug-2006
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#3 | |
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Greybeard
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Quote:
Oh I agree 100 percent here. You had to have artistic elements to make an artistic composition. But the focal is not on the plant by itself. It's the photo. I will have to take your word that the planting looked as good hovering silently on a black velvet drapped table in your back yard as it does in that photo  I can picture it in my mind, but its not framed like it is in the photo, and that my friend is apples and oranges.Happy photo's, Al
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Real men don't wear coats with "happi" in the title. |
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24-Aug-2006
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#4 |
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Greybeard
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Let me digress....
I have all the DVD's of the Gingko Awards. The last one that was published. I was taken with how the exhibits are photographed. In the beginning of the DVD there are shots of how the exhibit is put together with Danny Use cruising around on his bicycle watching everything go together. There is a few shots of the crew photographing all the trees for the book to come out at the end of the exhibit. The trees are brought to a station set up with fancy lights and a few stands or tables to place the trees on. The area is a flitter with light bouncing umbrella's and tripods with expensive camera's on them. My question, why not move the lights around and shoot the exhibit book with photo's of the exhibit. Show the tree the way the artist intended it ti be seen. My peeve, big deal... ak
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Real men don't wear coats with "happi" in the title. |
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24-Aug-2006
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#5 |
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Greybeard
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One last thing...
for the sake of clarity. Let us say we have the ability to go back in time. Let us say that I was there when you shot that picture. Let us also say that you and I over a few beers decided to make a contest from the same plant and shoot seperate pictures. Let us say that you submitted yours as is, the way you sumitted it. Let us say that I turned the plant say...15 degress either way. The plant has not changed but the composition of the arrangement will change. Maybe the grass would not bend over with the same feeling, or I might get a glare off the pot. There might have been a wind gust and it sent a piece of lint on the velvet to ruin the image. The craft - Grass planting...remains the same, static. The art - display....is in the details and feeling from carefull arrangement. What if someone shot a picture of you setting up the display, it might be art or it may be a photo of the back of Carl with grass in one hand and juggleing a camera in the other. I'm pictureing that now too....
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Real men don't wear coats with "happi" in the title. Last edited by bonsaial1 : 24-Aug-2006 at 03:13 AM. |
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24-Aug-2006
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#6 | |
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Old Mister Crow
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Quote:
I think you answered this quite nicely in your original post. It's because when people walk though the exhibit, the art is the trees displayed in the exhibit space. When people read the book, the art is the photographs - and these are considered "more artistic" or "more effective" when the photographers have greater control over every variable of lighting, backdrop, etc. Best regards, Carl |
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24-Aug-2006
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#7 |
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bonsaiTALK Master Chief
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Yes it's all about presentation and capturing the moment. Press photographers win awards for capturing the most grotesque on film, these are not carefully staged shots but spontaneous coupled with their ability as professionals to get amazing results.
When a chef presents the most appealing dish for your delight it whets your appetite visually. That is all about presentation and correctly so being the object of the exercise. Paintings in galleries are presented to the viewer in the best possible light as Carl did with his Kusamono, so really how this was achieved seems totally irrelevant. It is purely perception we should be concerned with. To me art and the presentation of art clasp one another and the means justifies the end. Kind regards Ash
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Better to procrastinate than lose sight of the objective by rash deeds. http://www.bonsaivault.com |
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24-Aug-2006
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#8 |
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day-clay-dreamster
Join Date: Jun-2005
Location: Gennep
Country: the Netherlands
Posts: 374
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Dear all
After reading this , a question which is longer in my mind bubbles up again. Why is it that trees in exhibition are mostly presented in rows and 2d ? The trees are exhibitioned as in pictures and one has to do turnings with the body to look good and than the keeper will come after You !!! The art becomes almost unreachable , weird , it is put there to present totally . Is it the space granted for the exhibitioners ? Is that the only reason ? Kind regards Morea Last edited by morea : 24-Aug-2006 at 10:37 AM. |
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24-Aug-2006
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#9 | |
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bonsaiTALK Adept
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Al:
This art question is a good discussion to get started during this long hot summer. The display of the grass or bonsai is very artistic. The photograph of the display is also very artistic. When Carl takes his photo he can print it and sign it and it will be forever recognized as his art. The grass planting or the bonsai tree cannot be signed in such a way and recorded as the product of the artist. Living sculptured bonsai trees are a fine art form as far as I am concerned. The bonsai tree is begun with a plan and an initial styling that is analogous to a painters sketch or a sculptor’s clay model. As the bonsai art piece continues under the creative hand of bonsai artist the form changes as new areas of growth are developed or eliminated. This tree development corresponds to the creation process the painter other artist uses to create the artwork. The final polishing and refinement of the bonsai artwork is performed with every branch wired into place and the final form is achieved. The tree is ready for display and the admiration of the public. At this point the painter or sculptor would sign the work and the final art would be displayed and enjoyed. The artwork will be credited to the artist in forever. Once a piece of fine art has been completed and purchased the buyer does not paint over a painting, carve on a sculpture or change the art in any way. Bonsai art is different from other fine arts because the tree continues to grow and change and the completed work is never kept as the artist finalized it. The bonsai art must be constantly worked to even keep it similar the final form the creation artist desired. As a bonsai artist I would like to be able to sign my artwork and be credited with it creation of the artwork for years to come. How can a bonsai artist show the final art as a completed work and receive credit? In another thread Al Keppler Said: Quote:
A signature on the art would help you achieve this acknowledgement. As you have pointed out a 2D photo is another piece of art separate from the bonsai or grass display. I think that the problem of not being able to credit a single artist with a creation of art in the form of a bonsai for an enduring time is one of the factors that the public evaluates when the true nature of bonsai as art or craft is considered. Gareth |
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25-Aug-2006
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#10 |
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Behr Appleby
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Excellent thoughts from everyone...As is most often the situation, once again we are discussing something that cannot truly be defined in my opinion...There have been many people that have attempted to describe or define what 'art' is, and all have only covered a tiny portion of the entire spectrum of 'art'...An object or display that I would consider very 'artistic' may not appeal to the emotions of other viewers...Other viewers are not likely to have the same education, environmental exposure, and 'life experiences' that I have, therefore will probably not be of the same opinion about an object...Also what I would consider ‘a craft object’ another may be deeply moved to call ‘art’ and vice versa...
I think I would definitely agree with Mr. Carl that the tree itself can be art as displayed by the owner, but a photo of that tree can also be art...A different ‘medium’ but still ‘art’ in its’ own right...In my way of viewing this, there are three distinct possibilities for an ‘artistic expression here, and I would like to use the famous statue of David by Michelangelo as an example of the three possibilities... One would be the tree/pot combination...If the tree is unique enough, if the detail work has been carried out properly, or if the tree and pot are complimentary of each other, to make an overall impression, invoke an emotion, and leave one with a memorable image, it is ‘art’...A work of this type is able to stand alone regardless of background, display area, or lighting...In my opinion the statue of Michelangelo’s David is such a work of art...In the center of an open field, it would still be ‘art’...Placed among many other un-related objects, it would still be art...The manner of display is un-important even though some settings are much more conducive to the enjoyment of this ‘Master work’... The second would be a tree/pot as a display...when used with other objects such as a proper stand, proper backdrop, and complimentary objects like accents, stones, or scrolls, the artist is able to communicate more of a story or emotion that can become a memorable experience for the viewer...Used in a display setting the tree/pot may well be one that would be considered ‘craft’ by a majority of viewers, yet the display as a whole could very well be ‘artistic’...This means of showing a tree has the possibility of making even a mediocre tree, or a ‘craft’ tree become ‘art’...Back to Michelangelo’s David, if displayed in a museum designed to display art it is of course considered to be art by most everyone, but on the other hand many works displayed in the same setting with the same lighting and accoutrements would only be considered art by a limited number of people...There is ‘good’ art and ‘good’ craft, but there is also the not so ‘outstanding’ art and craft...All of these have the possibility of becoming ‘art’ in a suitable display situation... Finally there is the ‘art’ of the photo...Once again there is ‘good’ and ‘not so good’, however this is an artistic medium that has influenced and changed our experiences and emotions possibly more than any other ‘art’ form...I have never, and probably will never see the statue of David in real 3D, but I have had the privilege to see a multitude of photos of the statue...Some very good, some not so good...Some I would consider ‘art’ in and of themselves...Others merely a good craft, and I am sure there are those that are not even a good craft...We have all had the pleasure of viewing beautiful ‘artistic’ photos of flowers in bloom...The flower on its own is neither ‘art’ nor ‘craft’, yet the photo is very much ‘art’...We have all also viewed very mediocre or ‘bad’ photos of flowers...The flower may still be a thing of beauty, but that beauty is lost in a poor photo...The same can be said of tree/pot combinations... One might also consider a painting or drawing of a ‘bonsai’ tree/pot combination…Again a poor painting of a great tree would not be good art, however a good painting of a well ‘crafted’ tree very well could be considered as ‘art’…Taking a look at some of the work of forum member Mr. Carl Rosner will soon allow one to realize a bonsai as a subject can also be considered ‘art’ with other mediums… Concerning display, we have been educated to consider the Japanese means of display to be the ultimate in displaying a bonsai…However if one is un-educated in the ways of Japanese display or the Japanese culture, this form of display does not mean much…Could it be possible that a tree/pot placed on a pedestal in the center of a room with appropriate lighting focusing on the tree, and the music of Beethoven playing in the background, would be a form of display that can be considered art?…As bonsaists we are generally concerned with the tree being the focal point of a display…But is this the only means of using a potted tree as an artistic display?...Or, is it a possibility that a ‘bonsai’ could be an accent, a complimentary object, a display ‘prop’, to another form of art… To say any one of these art forms is more important or more relevant than another is being unrealistic in my opinion…They are all different just as painting and sculpture are different, as jazz and classical music are different, and certainly as dance and theatre are different…All have the possibility of being ‘art’ in the hands of an artist, yet all can be accomplished as craft in the hands of one trained or educated to copy or mimic… Regards Behr 
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As the Master departed the workshop, he could have sworn he heard some one saying rather loudly... "I thought he would never leave" San Antonio Bonsai Society, Inc. |
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