Japanese Black Pine Seeds

dksyoung

Hello All,
I have been trying to propogate some JBP seeds and have the following question. Every once in a while a seed will begin to germinate. This means that the seed visibly opens up and a small white leader begins to protrude out of the shell. However, sometimes this process then stops, and the very tip of the leader turns darker like a black pin tip and then the seed grows no more.

The question is this. What is happening?
Is this a result of my propogation techniques or is this something inherent in that particular seed? If this is a result of my techniques, what is the most probably cause of this? What can I do to save the seeds that start to look like this? Any help would be greatly appreciated. It is like the seed is happy, starts to germinate and then something changes, like it is missing something (maybe not enough light).

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Mcspeed

Can you tell us about your set up, (ie. soil type?, enclosed/open for ventilation, where are you keeping it?, temps? Did you put them through a stratification process?


Sounds to me like they are dampning off from too high humidity, or staying wet in the soil too long. You may also have a light problem, if they open now(December) they aren;t getting enough light(JBP= need lots of light) unless you have them under a lot of indoor light. Could be bugs too.

ChrisM

wow, it could be any one, if not a combination of any of those things. what do you do with the seeds up to that point, info on your process would be a big help. i wrap my jbp seeds in a damp paper towel and put them in the refridgerator about 3-3 1/2 months before i want to plant them. when that time elapses, i use a seedstarter (big plastic tray with lots of little planters) that i get from home depot. plant my seeds in a mix of peat and miracle grow soil, and water. they are kept indoors in a bright window until after the last frost, then they go outside for good. i have had a pretty good success ratio doing it this way. hope this helps.

chris

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Globalist1789

What portion of your seeds does this happen too? It is totally normal to loose some seedlings along to way, that is why even the best seed sower always sows far more seeds than they need. If it is just a few, then you might not be doing anything wrong, if it is a lot of seeds then damping-off is most likely the problem. You could try watering with an anti-fungal solution (the powder for which is sold in every houseplant/garden center).

M.

Graydon

Sorry but how are you seeing the root (you call it a leader) emerge from the seed? All of that should take place below the surface of the soil. As the root orientates its self down and starts to grow it pushes the seed up in to the sun, soon after that the top opens and forces the seed apart and off.

Damping off takes place after this opening has happened. By the way there is no need to cold stratify JBP seeds (in papertowel in the fridge). This is actually bad for them as it introduces too much moisture in the form of condensation to the seed. Ideally they should be kept cool and dry in a paper bag or wrapped in paper. You can also keep them in a box of very dry sand in a dark place. Don't let them get moist or warm until you are ready to germinate them.

I did notice you are in Santiago Chile so you should be in great seed growing weather right now. Tell us more about how you started them and in what type soil, how often you water them as well as if they are outside and in the sun or shade.

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dksyoung

Wow. Thanks guys. Let's see, I also asked several sources via email and every one came back with damping off as a possibility so I am guessing this may be the case. My exact situation is the following.

I live in Santiago, Chile. This city is equivalent to Southern California which means very dry, lots of sun, and usually hits about 25 to 30 degrees C (80 to 90 F) during the day and then about 15 to 18 degrees C (60 to 65 F) during the night. Slightly like desert conditions. Currently we are entering the summer season so yes it is perfect time to have some new seedlings (equivalent to June in Northern Hemisphere). In Santiago, the last rains arrive around October and do not start again until maybe April, May so it is very dry.

I cold stratified the seeds for about 45 days in the refrigerator which upon completion I sowed the following way. I made a mix of 50% sand with 50% peat moss and a splash of organic soil. I put them in them in a seed tray and then placed the seeds in the tray about 1/4" deep - maybe even 3/8". I set up a closed mini greenhouse (about the height and width of a person or small closet) in my kitchen and left it hanging by the window. I am guessing that my kitchen stays relatively constant at around 65 to 75 degrees F. My problem is that everything dries out in Santiago so quickly that you almost have to create a humidified environment. Anyway, I left the seeds in the tray in this way which is close to the window. They may receive about 5 to 10 minutes of direct sunlight a day but I do keep them in a humidified environment. After 1 month I got kind of concerned, and unburied the little guys to take a peak and basically nothing had happened to any of them. Absolutely nothing at all.

The reason for the question came as a result of this. I started to think that light may be my problem, so I took two of the seeds and put it in a clear plastic container with a moist towel and paper and set it in the same general area. I am an engineer so I am always testing different things jaja. These seeds immediately sprouted but then ended up not going any further with the black tip showing as indicated in my question. This is when I really ran out of ideas and joined this forum. But yes, it would make sense that damping off caused my problem.

So now this is my situation, I have about 45 seeds in trays and have no idea what the best thing is to do. I am scared to leave it out in the direct air because of fear that it will dry out and kill the seeds unless I am constantly running to the house to make sure they have water. Yesterday I did the following. For each of the seeds, I left them in the tray but made sure they were uncovered or exposed to the light. I then put the trays in closed plastic containers to help maintain the humidity and then left the whole setup in an area that receives about 30 to 50 minutes of sun a day. My goal here was to place the seeds in an area where they get some sunlight while at the same time keeping them moist. My only concern may be that the containers heat up too much because of the sun but this did not seem to be the case yesterday.

I have four trays so I can gladly set up different conditions. I currently have them all the same way. I could also just take one tray, cover up the seeds slightly, set it outside with the rest of the Bonsai and play the non drying out game. I am really at a loss here but all I can say is damping off seems like a very good possibility on what is going on. I also have a heating mat, so if bottom heating makes a big difference I would be happy to try this also.

BTW - during cold strat some of the seeds actually opened up without actually germinating like the sucked in so much water they got fat and the seed split open. These seeds have stayed the same way since they opened in the refrigerator. I mean absolutely nothing has happened at all, after 30 days sowed.

I really really would love to get these going here. I know once they sprout they will be very happy because the conditions are perfect here. I have one full grown JBP and it grows like crazy. Should I put a tray out in the open next to the Adult? Please help. I can even take pictures if that helps me reach a solution. Thanks.

dksyoung

A quick addition, I just purchased a locally produced Fungicide that attacks diseases such as Pythium, Phythoftora, Fusarium, and Rizoctonia. The Fungicide markets its prevention of soil borne diseases especially protecting seeds and bulbs. After purchasing, I checked the internet and am almost sure that Pythium is the root cause (attacks the root tips). This Fungicide should help my process definately. Thanks so much for the help. I only need now to figure out how to get these darn buggers to germinate.

Graydon

Whatever fungicide you use dilute it at 1/2 recommended strength.

As for the prior posting...

Your instincts are correct, the seeds need a moist environment to germinate but they also need air circulation. Shade is the best place. Once they sprout they need to be in the sun and not in the shade or inside the house. A flat with a clear cover is a good idea as long as it is not completely sealed. A sealed container will bake the little sprouts.

I am suspecting that by cold stratifying them you damaged them. I base this on your posting that some swelled and opened in the fridge. I am going to stress that JBP seeds do not need cold stratification at all.

I'm not sure how much help we can be to fix the situation. I can suggest giving up on these and trying again following a clear process that works for others (including myself) :

1. Soak the seeds for 24 hours prior to planting in plain water. Discard the floaters as they are no good.

2. The soil you plant in must be very free draining. I use akadama and pumice or a small crushed lava rock. Any gritty thing will work - even sand, but it needs to be larger grained sand than beach type sand. River sand will work as long as it's like 1mm to 2mm in size.

3. Prepare your planting trays or flats and water the soil well before planting so it settles. Plant the seeds about 3/8 or so inches deep and cover. I make a little row or hole and cover with same soil. Water well. Do not let the soil dry out but do not keep it saturated. This is where granulated soil works well - it can't hold too much water so you can't over water.

4. Once they sprout slowly move them in to full sun over a week. Now use the fungicide diluted at every other watering. Again let it dry down some but not get bone dry.

That's it!

I know you have drying weather issues so perhaps you need to tent them until they get going.

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dksyoung

Excellent news! I followed the recommendation provided by Graydon to the letter and yesterday afternoon the first Black Pine reared its little green stem up through soil. The recommendation posted in this thread is an excellent guide for anyone who wants to grow Black Pines. Please remember I tried many different things and I cannot stress the importance in the soil and conditions (recommended here) that should be used in germinating black Pines.

Thanks again.