Acceptable rates of success

jml

Hi.

You've all been through this as beginners: You buy your first nursery trees, get carried away with your success in keeping them alive, buy a few books, get a lot of ideas in your head and suddenly you're trying to grow trees from seeds and cuttings.

I'm in that phase now. Just before spring I'm planning to do some propagation. I've some indoor material I could try and propagate from cuttings (chinese elms, carmona, serissa foetida, ficus, sageretia theezans).

I'd like to know - from your experience - how many cuttings I should use to get 2 or 3 trees (assuming I should be able to provide all the right conditions - bottom heat, rooting hormones, humidity, etc.). 20, 20.000?

Same applies to seeds (take for example Abies Alba, Gingko Biloba, Quercus suber, Quercus Ilex, Olea Europea). How many seeds should I plant to assure 1 or 2 successes?

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bnsaijim

JML,

Success rates depends on a number of factors, which you wrote I am to assume you have covered, leaving the important one- species- most of what you list will readily root from cuttings with minimal "fuss".

To get 1 or 2 pieces of wood, you could get away with 5- 10 cuttings or seeds. This will cover for losses in the first few years.

Now if you would prefer 1 or 2 of decent bonsai potential then you should start with much more. I would say start with 20 or more, depending on how much space and how many cuttings you can get.

A little fore-thought regarding size and style and how the cutting should be done to achieve this will help speed the development process.

The hard part will be the culling process!

Jim Stone
TX

Mittar

You mentioned Chinese Elms.

They grow as a weed where I live. A bunch of seeds fell in a pot last year and I watered them. A month later I had about 50 seedling. I neglected them for a week or so and half died, but the ones that were left over are doing quite well.

Some species are like that, just water and they'll be fine. It's good to find species that grow in your area though.

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FredL

My experience is that viability of seeds is wildly unpredictable. With some, such as Oaks, it's pretty predictable. Good acorns just look and feel alive; bad ones don't. With others, such as, say Elms or Junipers or Hornbeams or..... it seems to be anybody's guess. With those, I just try lots and lots and see what happens.

Something I've noticed is that with some species, it seems that the amount of vigor that emergent seedlings have appears to vary quite a bit between individuals. I'll see some die off, apparently from fungus (wilt) or some other obscure malady, while the one(s) next to it grows just fine. Seedlings don't seem like you can really count on them until they're a year old or so. To be sure of getting at least three or four in a year, I like to start off with a whole handful of seeds, if they're available free in the woods. Of course, you may end up with 60 or 80 that way, but I suppose that's just "Nature's Way". Pretty cruel, I guess!

Fred

Mittar

Yeah, I've got about 20 that are about 7 months old at this point. Enough to grow some for a group planing, a few for stardard Bonsai and a few for Mame. I guess now is the time to start training a Mame, yes?

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bnsaijim

It may be a good time to give shape to the trunk, but probably needs more time for trunk size and character. I'd figure out what might be your first branch or two and wire the bases down so they form with the desired angle.

Jim Stone
TX

Mittar

Thanks Jim,

Any Ideas on wiring a mame? They're pretty delicate as small as they are.

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Knees in the breeze.

bnsaijim

Ummm. Not much to offer other than careful practice before hand.

Colin Lewis CLAIMS one can create a spiral around thin air - which is supposed to show you are ready to wire the littl'uns. I think I may have to ask for a demo in two weeks... ;^)

Stick with copper over aluminum whenever possible- more holding power for any given size...

Jim Stone
TX

Mittar

Thanks Jim,

I won't touch aluminum. I'm a firm believer in the holding power of copper. I also believe about the spiral in thin air. I'm not there yet, but I understand the concept. I think twisting the wire instead of wrapping it is key.

Also, at this point just about everything I do is practice so I'm not too worried about ruining an elm seedling. If I do, there's about 10,000 more I could dig up in my area, lol.

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Knees in the breeze.