Tree of the Day - Thursday, April 21 2005

Ian_Homer

Walter,

I am confused. Yes, I see plenty of trees in nature with "bar branches" so agree that they can be accepted then in Bonsai, although that is against what I have read in books, on the internet and also seen in demonstrations.
(My experience)
What about Bar branches on an "Artisticly styled" tree then ?

Are you saying that in this "new era" of Bonsai design, we should now accept them more readily in any style ?

Just so that I and the other members here, know we are heading towards the new dawn in the right direction.

Thanks,
Ian.

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pootsie

Just for the sake of discussion I spent a moment trying to do a virt of Walter's virt only sans bar-branch. I didn't even bother posting because it really ucked up the fantastic rythm of the tree.

I really like Walter's pot selection, too. so, ditto to what he said.

pootsie

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Will_Heath

"It's okay if it's wrong, as long as you know it..."

Rules are guidelines, they give you a starting point to build from. First you must know and understand the rules, then you have the knowledge to bend them or to break them. If not for the masters who have this experience that enables them to create art outside of the accepted rules, every piece would look exactly the same.

Is the bar branch in question wrong? NO! Why? Because it works. Bar branches, parallel branches, inverse taper, large secondary branches, etc can all work in the right situation, it takes talent however to see and use it correctly.
"Do not make your tree look like a bonsai, make your bonsai look like a tree." This artist did exactly that, bravo.

Will

Ian_Homer

Thats fine by me then. . .
Just be prepared to accept a bit of flack is my thoughts, but then DO NOT BE AFRAID of artistic impression.

I think I will be far more "expressive" in this fine artform of ours from now on.
Thanks to Walter for opening my eyes wider.
Must be confusing to the newer members just starting out though.

Knew this was a great thread


All the best.
Ian.

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John Dixon

I look at this as the lesser of two evils. I completely agree that if the removal of a bar branch ruins the overall "final" design, you are mistaken to remove it. Without question.

As far as this specific bonsai goes, the initial removal will leave a void that will have to be dealt with and that will require some time (two years is a guess). I still feel I would remove it and be satisfied with the future design aspect I could obtain.

Once again, a wonderful problem to have. I have full respect for the others who are in disagreement with my idea, but I hold true to my course.

John

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John Dixon

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grampz

Mr. Ian,

I realize your question was directed to Mr. Walter, and I certainly hope he will reply to this very appropriate request...I would also like to voice my thoughts on this subject...

We have all learned [or at least should learn] the guidelines for creating good bonsai art...Things like bar branches, reverse taper, crossing branches, slingshot trunks, first branch 1/3 of height, etc. are all things we should be aware create a focus point for the eye when viewing a tree...As a method of instruction, these and many other so called "rules" are probably the easiest and best way for the instructor to convey his/her thoughts to the student...Unfortunately, most people that have any experience or knowledge of bonsai have a tendency to judge all trees according to these perceived "rules"...Some without much experience, would even destroy a really nice tree in order to make it conform to the "rules" they have been taught...

People that have not learned these "rules", or been exposed to the bonsai culture see the trees in an entirely different manner...These people judge the tree based on their experiences with trees in the wild, ["natural"] and the overall beauty of the display they are seeing...

As one invests more and more years in bonsai and truly looks at many trees, both in containers and in nature, you tend to see more of the overall picture that the tree is presenting...You see 'what' the artist has created, rather than how he has accomplished it...You judge a tree more on things like, 'Has the artist successfully represented a tree?', 'Does this tree tell a story, or convey a thought?', and most important of all, 'Does this tree stir my emotion?'...Things like balance [or lack of], outline, visual weight of tree and pot, etc. become more important than whether a tree has "bar branches" or not, unless the "bar branches" totally consume the overall message of the tree...

In the initial styling of a tree the "rules/guidelines" should always be a consideration, and if one desires to create a 'classic Japanese style' tree that will be entered in shows and judged by the "rules" then one must also continue to develop the tree according to those "rules"...But, if one is creating a tree for his/her own enjoyment and the enjoyment of the general non-bonsai educated public, the 'natural' approach is most likely the way to go, keeping in mind the principals of good artistic design...

Regards
Behr

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John Dixon

Very interesting discussion about an agreed academic "flaw". It is a great situation on this specific bonsai since it can be kept, or in my opinion, removed while still maintaining a wonderful specimen. I love calling this a "wonderful problem to have", because it is just that. Now we move from academia to actual styling ability.

My opinion is mainly based on the fact that the bar branch is in the initial viewing point at mid trunk line. My choice is that it is an eye-sore and should be removed. I can see other's opinions that it is natural and completely fine. The species is not a potential problem for swell like pinus, so the justification for removal is a styling decision. As long as keeping it is not motivated by "laziness", that is okay by me.

It's great to disagree on bonsai in a civil manner. This TOD thread just keeps getting better.

John

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John Dixon

Si vis pacem parabellum

Stay off the trails of others, that's where the booby-traps are.

Ian_Homer

Behr,

Thanks for your comments which I am in complete agreement with.

I think to draw a line here, we must realise that this tree "did not" conform to our perceived ideas on design quite some years ago and those branches were not selectedly removed at an appropriate time. This thread and the power of our computers, give us the options to discuss various possibilities, but in reality none of the trees in TOTD that have reached this maturity level, are EVER going to be influenced by what we say or do.

The tree is fine by me as it is and Walters pot combination just makes it that better a composition.

What I was questioning, was IF we should be more open minded at the earlier stages of a trees cycle with regard to design and I just thought from Walters comments that maybe we should be. If so - how ?

Plenty there for debate.

I dont want to be an "Old Gardener"

Best regards,
Ian.

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mike_p

I've had it in mind for some time now that the word, "rules" should be stricken from the bonsai lexicon, and "guidelines" take it's place.
If we need the "rule" word, let it be the "Golden Rule".

Regards

Mike

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