TOD for Monday, 17OCT2005

brad66

primary branch is out of whack...no taper and numerous other ?........shimpaku's dont grow like that in nature. i would cut the top out, wire it for a raft - plant it in a paddock and have a look in 4 or 5 years

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Will_Heath

No, I go out and buy the best stock I can afford, not the best already styled bonsai I can afford, there is a difference.


Nor did I claim these was a right or wrong way. I said "Nothing against collectors, gotta love them, but when you buy your stock 99% styled, you sometimes lose the joy that comes from creating something from nothing." And from my personal experiences, I still find this to be true. Sure there is a certain joy in owning a bonsai that has been created by someone else, and refinement, care, etc still needs to be done, however as I said, I enjoy making my own bonsai.

Your budget theory also comes into play here, it's just that I would rather spend 1500.00 (as in the recent ficus on ebay) on quality raw stock than a "finished" tree, my thoughts, yours may be different.

We need collectors and I envy their trees, but they also need creators such is bonsai.


Will

John Dixon

Will,

I wondered if I had accidentally opened the wrong thread.

I agree completely with your remarks. The most I have EVER spent on a "finished" bonsai is less than $700. Many times I have spent $300 or so on good material to "make" bonsai.

Every time I have been faced with making a $300-500 investment on "stock" or "finished" material, I have chosen the raw stock. That's 100% of the time. It's just me, and I am not trying to convince anyone it is the only way.

But the remarks about this juniper surprise me. Granted, it has limits, but for so many to dismiss it as basically without merit doesn't make sense. There is a great opportunity to learn there. But when you think about it, the same who dismiss the material are those who are proponents of purchasing "finished" material.

That's the difference in philosophy. Some see the beginnings of the bonsai, others don't or aren't concerned with that aspect. Remarks were made about how the details make the bonsai. Well, that's true in most respects. It can make a good bonsai into a great one, no doubt, but see how successful you are when the initial training was done without skill or forethought. With this juniper, a skilled person can make a good bonsai. It will take time, competence, some more time, patience, more time, and an eye for the future. Did I mention time?

Okay, you are 90 years old and don't (probably) have twenty-five years to wait. Okay, go buy a nice specimen. But most of us can ADD this type of material to our collection of better bonsai. I swear, it's not a taboo. Nothing bad will happen. Geez.

John

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John Dixon

Si vis pacem parabellum

Stay off the trails of others, that's where the booby-traps are.

Vonsgardens

Actually,
I wouldn't call the 1500 ficus styled. It is a very nice piece of material that with work could be a very nice bonsai, as it is now- potensai.

I didn't add the little "well if's' and innuendo that you did. Get over it. Most of the folks I know who are buying high end stock (even if styled to some rudimentary fashion prior to sale) have a plan to do the real hard work, the fine detail work, even if they pay an artist to do it for them.

Think about it, when you go and look at a fine tree- do you think- man that is a really fine tree, unbelieveable work. Or do you think- I wonder if they did all of the work themselves- if they didn't, the tree doesn't mean as much. If that is the case- (and I think it is at some level) think of the poor shmucks who take care of the royal collections in Japan, or god forbid- the fine trees in the national collection- anyone who cares for those trees could never be considered an artist..........


John
(think about the poor sap that has to redesign Goshin to keep it vibrant and healthy- nothing they do could be considered real bonsai art.)

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hansvanmeer

Thanks for opening this thread to post this reply Treebay.
After reading the post in this thread, i desided to make some rough drawings in defence of this tree.
Yes i know there are defects, and that a lot of thinks are missing in this material, but it is not that bad is it?
I think a lot of starting bonsaist would love the work on it, even if they know that it is not the best material.
I think that it is the pefect material to make a pretty bonsai and to learn all the basic and maintenance of bonsai, for many years to come!
The making of this tree, and the learning of maintaining it are the best way for a begining bonsaist to grow to better material, wil having a pretty nice bonsai in their garden.
I think that Arnie's virtual was the best, but i also had a go at it.
Regards,
Hans van Meer.

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hansvanmeer

and to more!

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John Dixon

Vongardens,

The same ficus was described as winning an award in the '80's. Surely that has to make it "styled" material here in 2005.

But this juniper is in the infant stages. The initial styling will be critical to how it improves over time. Arnie made an excellent virtual, Crabs submitted an excellent sketch, and Will's "chop" shows promise for a bonsai with a wide crown characteristic. As a matter of fact, ALL the virtuals/sketches were testimony to how many good ways the owner could proceed. That's why I, personally, love the T.O.D. thread.

As far as the "poor sap" who has to continuously "re-design" Goshin; I have NO pity for that person....just envy. That would be a dream come true to me, and I might remove .005% of the foliage if I had the chance!!! It would be an honor just to touch it.

Take care,

John

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John Dixon

Si vis pacem parabellum

Stay off the trails of others, that's where the booby-traps are.