Hello,
I have just started on the bonsai journey.
With no more horitculture/botany experience than planting some peas and raddish seeds as a kid and more recently mowing the lawn when it gets high enough to loose small children in, I have started to grow a bonsai Eucalyptus Jacksonii (Red Tingle) from seed.

My seeds were planted 36 days ago. After 14 days I had six seedlings.
In the last three days all the seedlings have sprouted their first post sprouting leaves. Now the cotyledon leaves on three of the plants have begun to curl.

Is this normal?
Is this likely to be 'leaf curl disease'?

Any hints/tips/experiences appreciated.

Gday Red & Co!

Sorry it's taken me so long to reply to your questions - been kinda busy. In short, I don't know. I'm not familiar with E. jacksonii, and I have never really grown Eucalypts from seed. Sorry I can't help. (It's been almost 5 months since you posted, so I daresay that by now, they've either died or survived to grow on - hopefully the latter is true.)

* * *

Well Peter, it has survived and is growing quite well, but I'm almost certain it isn't E. polyanthemos. Initially, the rounded leaves made me think you could be correct, but now that it's put on more foliage, I'm leaning towards local Euc species with more lanceolate leaves, such as E. meliodora (Yellow Box), E. camaldulensis (River Red Gum) and E. viminalis (Manna Gum).

The tree now stands at 900mm from the soil - that's 3 times the original trunk height (although I have had to wire the new leader into a more upright position). While I am more than likely going to be chopping the new leader for taper, I thought I'd experiment with wiring some bends into the thin new growth.

I've also included 2 photos of young Cup Moth larvae, just because they're so pretty. They are currently munching on the leaves of a Red Box we have growing in the front yard.

Thanks.

Fly.

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	Cup_Moth_Caterpillar_01.jpg (62.1 KB, 23 views)
	Cup_Moth_Caterpillar_02.jpg (72.7 KB, 15 views)

I have three healthy survivors.

Pictures in the beginners section:
http://forum.bonsaitalk.com/f13/euc...onii-25739.html

Red.

Glad to hear it Red, and good to see the survivors going well! I hope to drop in to your aforementioned thread tomorrow AM to float some ideas to nurture your Euc treelings...

* * *

... but for now, it's just some pics.

I suppose that anything which feeds upon the leaves of our trees could be classified as a 'pest', but I have yet to see any critter do enough damage to any of my trees to warrant its 'eradication'. (I've had some problems with Pear & Cherry Slug on my Pyrus and Hawthorn in the past, but nothing that couldn't be fixed by the flick of a finger.) Perhaps it's good luck, or good horticulture, or a combination of both, but I don't really have pests.

Do I sound like a hippie if I opt to call many of the critters in my trees 'guests'? (In answer to my own question: "Yes"...)

Anyway - tree-hugger or not - I offer pics of the current resident of a purchased Euc of mine. The tree is reportedly E. Camuldulensis, and the caterpillar is completlely unknown to me. I am aware that the odd leaf is disappearing overnight.

The pics show (in order):

<1> The beast in all its beastly glory (approx 60mm (~2⅓") long). Ladies and children: please avert your eyes!

<2> The head of the beast!!! (EDIT: Oops - that's the tail...)

<3> The head of the beast!!!

I hope that everybody's OK to sleep after seeing such horrific images of insect-inflicted Bonsai carnage.

Thanks. Peace.

FlyBri.

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Brian as a euc master, you showed some images of a airlayer you did. Would you please give us a run down on how you did it, and when you did it?

Euc Master? If you say so...

I assume you are referring to the River Red layer which can be seen in this post. (I've also attached an image of the tree as it is now - as you can see, I'm experimenting with wiring vigorous extended growth.)

2003 is a long time ago, but I don't recall doing anything out of the ordinary with this layer, except that I opted to use a semi-rigid container to hold the medium (sphagnum moss, in this case) rather than trying to wrap a wad of the stuff around the layer site. (Trying to describe the way I affixed the container to the tree is very difficult without photos... If you don't get it worked out, perhaps I can recreate the process in pictorial form at a later date.)

• Take a very sharp knife (such as a snap-blade utility blade, or a scalpel or razor blade) and push the cutting edge (not the tip) into the bark at an angle of 90° to the branch/trunk. Apply pressure until you feel a 'pop' - this is the point where the cambium layer meets the xylem (it can take some time before you get the feel for this).
  
• Repeat the process around the girth of the trunk until you have formed one complete ring. Do the same for the second ring, bearing in mind that the distance between the two rings should be approximately 1.5 - 2 times the width of the branch/trunk in question.
  
• Once both rings are cut, use the tip of the knife to make a lengthwise cut which joins the two ring cuts - if you have made all cuts to the correct depth, you can use the knife tip to prise the bark open at this third cut. The band of bark should peel away readily, but may require some tidying up after the fact. The exposed xylem should be smooth and free of any bridging cambium fibres.
  
• Apply rooting hormone (or not - I have largely given up on auxins when layering healthy Eucs), apply a generous amount of moist growing medium, water well, and secure against the elements. In the case of this particular layer, the takeaway container was the only protection from drying winds and sunlight. In other cases, plastic cling film, shopping bags, aluminium foil and/or black plastic may be used, but I prefer the rigidity and control offered by nursery pots and the like (I have a couple of Euc layers in progress, and I'll try to get pics later today to better illustrate how I do it)
  
• Wait. Timing will vary from tree to tree, and will also depend largely upon the time of year. If the layer site becomes bridged by cambium, the layer may set few or no roots, and you will need to re-strip the wound and start afresh. Should the medium ever become dry, the layer will most probably fail.

So, the process is no different for the Eucs (and associated genera) than for other species, in my limited experience. As Eucs can grow virtually year-round given the right conditions, I would consider starting a layer any time when growth is present or about to begin.

I hope this helps.

Thanks.

Fly.

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River_Red_Ringbark_04.jpg (71.4 KB, 22 views)

Gday again folks!

As promised, here are a few pics of a Euc layer in progress. I believe that I started the process in November or December, and when I checked in early January, I found that much of the layer site had bridged-over with new cambium tissue, causing me to re-strip the wound.

The little pot has been wrapped in a plastic shopping bag to prevent evaporation, but I have obviously removed it for the purposes of photography.

[1] The layer in the context of the entire tree. The trunk is approximately 40mm (~1.5") at the layer site. I had chosen to perform a layer on this tree because the trunk needed shortening but I couldn't bear to simply throw away such a great source of thick, tapered Euc material.

[2] A detailed pic of the layer, showing how finely chopped the sphagnum moss is. I have found that if sphagnum is left in its original strands, it is likely to form air pockets which may hinder the development of roots. Also, using fine particles such as this make it much easier to tease out the roots when the time comes. (In actuality, this sphagnum was thrown into an old blender with generous portion of water, and whizzed until all the large strands were torn to shreds.)

[3] The underside of the layer, and lots of roots. I could probably safely remove the layer now (assuming that I trimmed the top quite heavily at the same time). However, it is difficult to tell whether I have achieved even rooting about the layer site, so I chose to trim these roots back to the drainage holes in the pot, in order to try to force new roots to emerge from the trunk. I have since re-wrapped the pot in a plastic bag, and will check periodically over the next month or so.

I dunno if any of this has helped, but I have managed to bump my own thread and add to my post-count...

Thanks.

Fly.

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	Euc_Layer_02.jpg (71.9 KB, 13 views)
	Euc_Layer_03.jpg (70.0 KB, 17 views)

Thankyou for that, explaiins alot, and I have something to work on.


Seeing as we are talking gums, here are my two little Euc conferruminata's.

They have good movement, and appear to healthy. Both are putting out new growth so work on them wont appen untill thats stopped. I should be fine to wire though. I hope I dont have to enduce dormancy, I dont think I can walk that thin line.

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gums.jpg (30.8 KB, 8 views)

Well I have made a small start on these two, maybe you can advise here Fly.

As per the book Bonsai with Australian natives by the koreshoff, I have made sure there in no upwards growth. All those branches that wer growing up off the trunk have been twisted to side branches.

As soon as the new growth has matured on the second gum (the one having the main trunk, and not two.) will have a spilt made down the bottom. I hope to easy it apart very carefully and seal it up. Over time it should heal over. If it doesn't I still have the hollow in the trunk we see many gums have. but the decision is still just an idea.

The first one is very undecided. I'm not completely sure on were to go.


Fly have you de foliated completely?

Also getting them to go dormant now as the new growth is mid way through, is it a good idea? I don't want it to start pushing more nre growth before I can re pot and root prune.

When re potting tube stock, can one completely wash the roots so no old soil is left?

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	gum1.jpg (17.3 KB, 8 views)
	gum2.jpg (17.2 KB, 7 views)

Gday Asus!

Sorry it's taken so long, but I've been wracking my brain to come up with some useful, responsible answers for you. I'll attempt to address each of your queries in order, and hopefully you will be better able to make an informed decision with these trees.

I have re-visited the Koreshoffs' book, and I believe the key to working with such young stock lies in their statement: This is to say that many of the 'rules' pertaining to the culture and treatment of mature (possibly collected) Eucs may be bent considerably when working with tubestock such as yours.

OK, so this 'rule' is still applicable, even with young Eucs, and the evidence to support it is readily visible. Your choice of species (and individual specimens) has been good, in that they display short internodes, good natural movement, and the ability to shoot low on the trunk, however it is this last characteristic which will most likely force you to alter your design plans in the very near future. It is apparent that these treelings have suffered some form of trauma in the past few months - most likely caused by a period of dryness and/or hot winds - and have subsequently been nursed back to health, as evidenced the vigorous lower growth. Unfortunately, the imbalance of energy between the healthy lower growth [1 & 2] and the compromised original growth [3 & 4] will be difficult (if not impossible) to overcome, regardless of pruning/wiring, as pruning/wiring will tend only to affect growth lower on the tree, and not higher up.

In short, I expect that the original trunks will continue to dieback, at least as far as the black lines, regardless of anything you do to the new growth. This damage was already done before you bought the seedlings, so don't be too hard on yourself.

I am not familiar with the process of trunk-splitting, so any advice here is merely speculation on my part. (I recall you mentioned in Chat that a club mate of yours had performed the operation on a Euc a few years ago with great success, and the idea is certainly very interesting.) I would imagine that key factors in the success or failure of the operation would be the balance of roots on either side of the split (tubestock such as this can have wildly uneven rooting), and the presence (or absence) of a lignotuber beneath the soil's surface. As a lignotuber is essentially a Euc's powerhouse, I would be wary of tampering with it. That said, the lignotuber is "made up of undifferentiated cells, which... have the ability to either produce branches or roots"*, so 'correctly' splitting one along the length of the trunk may well add to trunk taper and surface rooting. This is all speculation, mind you...

I wouldn't worry too much about styling this one yet - as I suggested above, this tree is probably making your decisions for you at this point. I'd concentrate on getting it potted up for the time being.**

I had done in the past, but lately I have managed to 'read' my trees in such a way that total defoliation has been unnecessary - and could possibly have even been detrimental.**

This is one of the 'rules' which is more flexible with regards to young tubestock. I would be less concerned with what's going on up top than what the roots are doing, as the top can be pruned/defoliated to simulate dormancy. If the roots have thick, white tips, they are actively growing, and some caution is warranted when repotting. If white tips are scarce or not present, rootwork may be a little more aggressive.**

I wouldn't, for a couple of reasons. Firstly, at this stage of development, a Euc's roots may be so delicate that washing out the soil could destroy the roots altogether. Secondly, (I'm no biologist) healthy Eucs such as these may have developed beneficial bacteria and/or fungus in their soil - because of this possibility, I prefer to leave as much original soil in place as is practicable, and I like to mix the remaining original soil into the new soil.**

Thanks and good luck.

Fly.

- - -

* Koreshoff, "Bonsai With Australian Native Plants", Page 50.

** I hope to post a follow-up with detailed photographs, illustrating how I would treat Euc tubestock of similar age and condition to yours. Please find attached a pic of 10 Corymbia citriodora (formerly Eucalyptus citriodora) I purchased for $5. Expect this follow-up soon.

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	C_Citriodora_Seedlings.jpg (70.4 KB, 267 views)