Sound advice on some broad leaf trees but poor advice on conifers.

Simple horticulture knowledge that everyone needs to know. Really has nothing to do with bonsai per se.

I have spent what seems like a lifetime trying to get pines and cedars to bud back where I want a branch. Or trying to graft a branch where I need one. All of this could be avoided if the stock I selected would have had excess and abundant branching in place. It's easier to cut away than to cut and pray for a bud. It is a direct result of poor stock selection - just like Ron said. However - as a beginner I did not know this. As a more advanced student I now have the abilities to correct the problems of poor trunk size, bad branching and poor nebari. It is also a direct result of not caring for the trees properly after they were in my care...

Not trying to argue a point either - just trying to demonstrate that caring for the trees takes a certain amount of knowledge about the specific species of tree we are caring for. It's growth habits and it's needs. What the plant will do if pruned like this or like that. More knowledge that the common newbie seems to have on caring for a plant - any plant.

It seems that this lack of plant care knowledge sends most newbies into a spin when the plant starts to die - overanalyzing the soil, the fertilizer, the light and water requirements and the zone in which the plant will grow. At that point it is too late and they have deadsai. This could have been avoided if they had obtained a certain level of plant care abilities prior to even touching the potential bonsai - way prior to selection.

This is the other learning curve not mentioned in Ron's article. You have to be able to give the plant the care it needs - even micro adjusted to what that plant needs at the stage of development it is in at this time. For example I have a ton of Japanese Black Pines. Not every one needs the same care. Some are almost complete so I am slowing down the growth and lowering the amount of food. Some are on the fast track and are being super fed and watered 4 times daily. Some are in huge pots and need less water and some are in very small bonsai pots and need to be watered more often.

Did I know this in the beginning? No way - it took killing some plants and reading everything I read as a newbie once again. It took trips to nurseries and growers, trips to masters workshops, tons of more reading and hands on work to get to where I am - and I still feel I do not know everything I need to know.

So select the best stock you can - chances are you will make all the wrong choices because you do not know why you are making those choices. And then go home and kill it with the lack of proper horticulture know how. Only at that point do you seek out the experts and learn what they take for granted as they have been doing it for so long that they have forgot more than I will ever learn.

Bonsai is not just about styling - it's about growing.

Re: broad leaf trees

...but I'm not arguing that.

I thought it'd be a nice addendum to Ron's fine article if he'd mentioned something along the lines of "but don't let branch selection get in the way of choosing a good trunk." Thats all I'm saying.


WF

***taps microphone***
Is this thing on?

No arguing here - sorry to build my rant on your comment. No offense meant.

I'm just stating that branch selection and some species go hand in hand. Those branches help fatten that trunk. And good horticulture practices will help you develop and refine both the branches and the trunk at the same time. Show me a beginner that knows that.

Ron did a great job with this article. All new people interested should have to read things like this before touching a plant. But here in America I think we have this whole bonsai thing backwards - and that is just like us Americans. Make it faster (fast food) - make it easier (mallsai) - make it discounted (wallymart and homey depot). And then when it does not work it MUST be someone else's fault - oh - I should have paid attention and actually learned something before I started. Maybe I should join a club or something.

I am trying to advocate that these new people selecting their "masterpiece stock" get help from someone that knows their @ss from a hole in the ground - that's all.

All the book smarts won't help that much - for example let's say a local club member named Jimmy reads every bonsai book he can find. He has learned every japanese style name and can even use the Japanese word for informal upright. He knows he wants a pine (or a maple or a cypress or a hornbeam) so he goes to a nursery and picks out a tree. He thinks it has a good trunk (criteria #1) and it has a nebari of sorts but they are all tangled(criteria #2) and it has branches - duh (criteria #3) and the tag on the plant has the growth habit so we are good to go (criteria #4). Now Jimmy goes home and starts root pruning in July and clipping and wiring and all the other things the big boys do - only with his book smarts - no hands on ever. Lucky bastard doesn't kill the poor thing - he just maims it for years of suffering and recovery. Then the regret sets in - maybe I should have paid attention to how this plant grows for a year or two before the pruners hit the branches.

Now let's say I am Jimmy and that was 5 years ago (or 10 or 20 - time means nothing to these plants). That first plant I bought still sucks but it has a prominent location on my bench as it will serve as a reminder and to my lack of knowledge. It humbles me in a way that no book or article will ever humble me.

However - I can now help that plant become something it was never destined to be but only because of my learning. That $250 starter stock that was on the next bench so many years ago looks a hell of a lot better in the rearview mirror - know what I mean?

Sensei - please help me pick out a plant for I do not know what I am doing. How hard would that have been?

So true. By the way great little article.



Keyword smart.



By all means it does - but again forgive me for I do not know what I do. It was a pretty little tree. Can I put in in a cute little pot now?



The teacher should always come first. With the book. I think they go hand in hand. You know - just like those books we carried around for 12 years of school and 4 to 6 years of college. Let the teacher teach - they are far superior in helping you select good material when you are ready.

Side note - there are a ton of special self taught independent bonsai enthusiasts out there. Good for you. You are out of the norm. Keep doing what you do.

In no way do I take offense to any ones comments here. There is always more than one side to any story. But I do reserve the right to every now and again insert a comment of my own. )

In a perfect world everybody could find a bonsai teacher. This is not a perfect world.

But even in an imperfect world one can always find a bonsai book. Maybe not the best but certainly better than nothing.

Ha! - That was not an apology to you - it was to bwaynef. I went back and re-read my post in reply to him and thought I was getting a little heated. But you can take the apology as well if needed.

I am in agreement with you on almost everything. It could be difficult to find a teacher - depending on how serious this it to you. If you are serious enough you can travel to find one. But again most newcomers do not know they need the help - to the extent that they really do. How many watering and feeding and sunlight questions are posted on BT a day? I may be mistaken but aren't all of those basic things covered in a lot more depth in most (if not all) bonsai books than the selecting of a potential 'victim' tree based on existing nebari or trunk caliper?

It may be the art of bonsai but it is a science of horticulture.

Back to the chicken and the egg debate - teacher (if available) and book or tree first. Beats me.

Here is my line of thinking throughout this thread:

I read your article and thought you'd touched on the basics of selection. I realized that I would probably have added something to it had I written it (and arguably, left some stuff out, be it important or not. We're different so our writing would be too).

I saw that you wanted discussion on the topic more than (necessarily) about the article (reply #7). I offered a suggestion, though poorly worded apparently, and in reference to your article. As a result of my suggestion, it seemed that you defended not adding a "jot or tittle" to your article for reasons having to do with length.

I thought that you wanted a discussion on the subject. I think the reason we haven't had one has little to do with this post being moved to the Articles section.

WF

You might just be right there. But it was a good try on my part. I thought so anyway.
Better luck next time I guess.

Sometimes my subtleties aren't obvious enough. I'm done.