Fred,

Interesting, thoughtful, insightful post. A comment and a question.



Yes, I've thought about this as well. I am not well enough versed in the formal study of art (read: no background whatsoever) to know to what degree this is unusual.

Is originality - or uniquely personal expression, for that matter - a necessary condition for art?

I'd venture that this is a uniquely western perspective. Just as one example, the 16th century Ottoman illustrators described in Orhan Pamuk's glorious novel My Name is Red felt that the perfect artist would so completely copy the essence of the historical masters that his miniatures would carry no trace of his own personal style.

With my best regards,
Carl

Carl, the point you focused on as a really interesting one to me, also, though I hadn't thought about it in exactly the same way you have brought out. Let me comment on another aspect that is quite closely related to your comments.

I'm just finishing a fascinating book on the history of warfare that focuses on the question of why it has been, for the past 3000 or so years, that Western armies, starting with the Greeks, have been so effective compared to armies from the Middle East, North Africa, the Americas, Sub-Saharan Africa - well, the entire World. Well, the author presents a pretty convincing case that the basic reason is Western Individualism. This individualism has many, many implications for warfare which I won't go into here (The name of the book is "Culture and Carnage"), but Western Individualism as opposed to Tribalism, in all its manifestations, also has huge implications for art. At least, so it seems to me.

And we must remember, Bonsai is the outgrowth of a culture of a people who were essentially tribal until very recently. There is a wonderful movie that brought this out very vividly that I recommended awhile back: "The Last Samurai".

Anyway, I'm not an Anthropologist or Sociologist, but it seems pretty obvious that tribal societies do not place any importance on individuality but upon each individual understanding and accepting his(her) place in the tribe and in a Universe which is pretty much eternal and unchanging.

Now, this is a pretty smothering sort of vision of life for most Westerners, but is highly satisfying to most tribal people who, over the centuries, have fought fiercely to maintain their societies and world-views against the onslaught of modern individualism.

I want to submit the idea that Bonsai is, above all else, a tribal art form which was developed to display and support a tribal view of the Universe. Hence, its uncomfortable fit with Western Individualism.

Myself, I find much about the tribal vision of life and Nature very attractive and think that mankind lost alot when it abandoned tribalism. Yes, it gave up such unfortunate acoutrements as superstition, racism, the mindlessness of ritual......and, on and on. But it also gave up companionship with a special quality lacking in our world today and a kind of closeness to the Natural World that we are so estranged from today.

I was so struck by Walter Pall's story of his rejection of a very successful career in business to "live like a monk" (his words). I still can't quite get my head around his story, but it obviousy contains elements of rejection of Western ideals of success and the meaning of life. I don't know whether to think he has gone back to something more primitive in his lifestyle or forward to somethng more advanced than Western Individualism, but it is obviously something different. And Bonsai is his chosen medium of expression.

I think you are on to something with your view of Bonsai as a form of art that has nothing to do with the artist expressing his(her) own unique individuality. I think it's the opposite of this, with the artist expressing a view of the Universe that helps us to see what unites us and that we all have in common; to see what our place is in an eternal Natural World and to strengthen our ties to that world.

Respectfully submitted, Fred

Fred;

The issues you discussed were spoken of under “The Sprite of Western Bonsai”. I agree there is a dichotomy from tribal life and modern civilization. Most attempts in the 20th century to return to a tribal instinct have been failures. Tribal life needs the populace to be unquestioning of authority, a willingness to accept totalitarianism, autocracy, or dictatorship. It has no place for freethinking or open-minded sharing of ideas. Lenin tried it in Russia, Hitler in Germany, Franco in Italy, Mao in China, Armim in Ethiopia, Pinochet in Chile, Houssein in Iraq. All tried to utilize history and tradition to rule, and all were abysmal failures. They failed because such a society needs to be static, without outside influence, just like the Japanese society that developed the basis of modern bonsai. However in today’s world, the exchange of information and ideas can not be restricted. If bonsai is to grow, it needs open-minded people willing to take risks, to breathe fresh life into the art. Otherwise it will continue to be static and restrictive, until it becomes and anachronism.

I can foresee the day when there is a new nomenclature for the art. Certain words will persist, some will be simplified, we speak of pots, not trays, junipers rarely shimpaku. It is truly becoming a global hobby with distinct differences of regional styles while still having a place for traditionalists. To me, has nothing to do with an ephemeral view of the universe, but recreating our individual views of Nature in a transportable art. Few outside prison are so completely cut off from nature as to be estranged therefrom. Remember the trees I seen in New Hampshire (USA) are not the same as in Japan, Germany, or even the southern or western United States. AS peoples knowledge expands they may choose to create bonsai in differing styles, as they would appear in other locals, but that is up to the individual. I am always excited by the possibilities that are possible in the future.

As Always

JLD

Carl, you've been blogged:

http://www.clarkson.edu/~johndan/da...ves/000795.html

Regards,

Matt

Well, pot my plants and call it art, we've been blogged!

pootsie

The defeat of modern irony

pootsie

Pootsie, we sure don't want to confuse inony with pure horsepucky.

Mike

My first ironic thought is perhaps we should see our friends alchoholic pre frontal lobes represented by foliage pads....someday I'll have my last ironic thought...what a relief that will be...

(new member), Have sat back and read many "threads" and articles and have just started responding to some. Like an article I read previously, bonsai as an art form, american or japanese? I fail to see the confussion. My feelings on this art.

The expression of ones inter-self, yes even through the "art" of bonsai, an art of achieving harmony with nature, coupled with the desire to dominate it and to reproduce faithfully, though on a different scale, what nature creates.

Indeed, we learn most we know by establshed priciples, math, science, etc., as with bonsi, recreating those typical styles , kengai, ishitsuki, etc, in order to understand those principles, the masters over thousand of years established.

And even when and least for me when I achieved those styles have always felt they were still art forms I created, and even when I invisioned my own style, I once created the "spider" eight branches over all sides of the pot, curling up at the ends, which just rested on the turntable, now some said it was in a kengai style, as in the other article, was it an american style,? to me, even when I copy the "traditional" styles they are mine, when I was involved in bonsai before when asked, what do you think of my tree, most in are circle would respond , thats a fine "fred" or what an amazing "charlie".
Even when one was trying to achieve a style, "Its a fine moyogi, with a touch of "charlie".(this was the seventies!) As with another thread I read when some were talking of critizism, " To touch anothers heart, one must first feel"

After accomplishing a bonsai, if one can feel a part them in it, then you have expressed art at its greatest form, and if others can not see that art another has created, they have no vision, its indeed that vision "one" has that takes it beyond, japanese, or american, even when I'm imitating nature, shaping trees grown in trays to look like those in the forest, some how there something that always reflects a part of me, and makes it my own, "charlie"

When we look at paintings, one does not say its a great painting in the typical renascence style, we say its a great rembrandt, or renoir.
We reconize art not only by its form, but by the artist, and from many of the pics I've seen many great "grumpa's, and "gilby's, and in the future, a few nice "charlies' in the 'art" of bonsai will be shown.

Another ironic moment in modern art:
Museum rejects artwork, displays empty stand.

Can I get a "LOL," sisters and brothers?

pootsie