I don't believe you are missing anything at all, I think that when it comes to any artform the opperative words from what you have quoted are "creative instantiation". Any artist no matter what their medium will try to bring about an end, based on what they feel.While, at the same time, there are those who would consider themselves artists who use a "cookie cutter" mentality to create something that they can capitalize on. In that case I believe that should not be considered art (I'm not saying artist shouldn't sell their work! They should if they want to).

What appeals to me about bonsai is it ability to make me feel more connected with nature. When I look at the "Crash Bonsai", while I do not deny it's quality as art, I am not moved because I'm not drawn to the destruction aspect of it. I can also say art designed to evoke "cyncism or cutting irony" does not generally appeal to me.

Some on this forum have spoken on whether or not bonsai is an art. I say yes it is. When my daughter presented her first finger painting to me she was very proud of it and in her eyes was the question, "Is this art?". When I looked at it the only answer that I could give to that question was yes! To me it was art, perhaps the audience that would appreciate it as such isn't more than 15 or 20 of my close friends and family but that doesn't demean it's quality.

In my opinion what we have been missing in this debate is the question(s), is bonsai marketable art? And if so to what degree is it so? I consider myself a bonsai artist, even though I am very new to bonsai and I have not produced anything marketable. I have put my creative juices into the artform.

Perhaps when it comes to the arts in general, "sentimentalism" is no longer as marketable as it used to be.

My $.02,
JP <= a staunch sentimentalist

BTW, thanks for reading my ramblings.

fred, you said - "How sad it is to see people who identify themselves so closelywith their opinions that they apparently feel threatened by any expression of opinion that differs from their own." thats what i said "probably" to.
al, i want to elaborate a little on my reply to you earlier. some are so hell bent in their ways that they can't imagine someone else doing/seeing it differently. so in this case, (and the case of all the other art threads) some people will not even consider bonsai COULD just be an art form as well as a hobby that requires a skill and level of talent. there are the traditionalists who think pop bonsai is a waste of time, while there are others who appreciate progression, for example. some will just not bend from the "RULES" and to those people i would ask, "nick lenz has created some amazing portrayals of bonsai work, he is inovative, imaginative and truely blessed with TALENT. he is obviously much more than a hobbyist, so then, to apply all this talk about art to bonsai, would it be unacceptable to say that he is a "BONSAI ARTIST"?

chris

Chris, I hope I can say all the things in the correct way so as not to sound like a buffoon.

I believe bonsai is art. I do not think anything less.

My question, which so many here professs to know alot about, is which are art? What makes them art? Please don't say that you know it when you see it! Or that it speaks to me!

Please put down the parameters in plain english so that everyone here can understand what makes bonsai artistic.

I don't think that when styling bonsai, art comes first. I feel that art is derived from a finished presentation of a wonderfully designed tree. I feel that this finished piece of art comes from a superior talented craftsman that achieves bonsai that are truly artistic sometimes but not every attempt. I also feel that the craftsman will achieve artistry through pot, and moss, and photo.

This is just about the plainest bonsai that I have. It is the epitome of cookie cutter. You will not bruise my ego! Those that wish to have fun with me, bang away!

The shape is pleasing, the pot is a good match, though a little large, and the tree is healthy. Is this Art?

If it is...WHY!

If it isn't...WHY!

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Is this art?

Bonsai taken to a new extreme. I'm not being flip here. For all I know I have never seen topiary used in bonsai. Some would find this very artistic, and some would scoff.

Should we really be thinking that far out of the pot..er... box?

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I don't know if it's art, but it's certainly threadjacking!

-Carl

Al, the question is not "Is this Art" you should be defining words like good, quality, bad, mundane, retched. It is all art, what level we assign it determines if we would want to own it.

By-the-way, that topiary looks similar a bonsai I have... A spiral in each corner with a triple ball tree in the center. The question to you, is it or is it not a bonsai. it fits the requirements, they are trees in pots. Arbourvitis and boxwood.

Carl, I'm kind of sorry about my silliness on your thead. You've raised a serious issue and I think I should have treated it more seriously. I do like to have fun when I talk to friends and, I guess like everybody else on this very new medium, am still feeling my way along. Posting comments on internet forums is not really quite the same thing as a chat with friends, but I, for one, still can't figure out exactly what it is and how to have fun with it without offending anybody.

To me, it seems like Bonsai is quite unlike other artistic media in that the material the artist is working with is ALIVE. This introduces a profound difference into the process and the results of the artist's efforts. The thing is, the trees we are working with has their own agenda, entirely separate and apart from the artist's. To me, recognition of this introduces a sort of respect for the tree itself that does not exist in other forms of art, where the artist is trying simply to express a personal vision thru inanimate materials. I don't for example, ever recall a painter or sculpter expressing a desire to express the character of his materials in the way many bonsai artists talk about what they are doing. At least, Eastern (Japanese) bonsai artists.

Now I don't want to get into the whole silliness about whether Bonsai is cruel to the trees. Even if there was anything to this notion, this particular idea is not likely to get very far in this venue! So, that's not what I'm talking about.

What I am talking about is the sort of instinctive reverence most of us feel for the magnificance of the natural world and the sort of nostalgia that many of us feel for a life spent closer to that world and the feelings that it evokes in us. In my life, I still remember the intense feelings of loss that I felt when, around the age of 27, I committed to the world of business, an urban life and giving up a life spent close to nature.

Now, to be honest, I don't entirely understand the vocabulary you are using to describe the ideas you have introduced, but I do understand the gap between urban intellectuals and those whose lives are focused primarily on the natural world. These latter folks, no matter how brilliant and how knowledgable of the world that interests them they are, they are, of course, looked down on by urban intellectuals. Yet, I think this is the mentality that Bonsai springs from and that it is a rather recent development that Bonsai is coming to be significantly influenced and explained by urban intellectuals.

Bonsai is certainly appropriately looked upon as an art form, but is a profoundly different form of art than those using inanimate materials. As such, it is pretty much unsuited for the social commentary so beloved by urban intellectuals. It speaks to a different place in the heart than those so empasized by that particular crowd. It has little relevance to the problems of society, which I think is the subject matter of Art Irony.

Myself, I see the spirit of Bonsai more akin to the spirit which created and maintains Glacier National Park than the spirit of, say, Picasso.

Fred

Another classic case of irony..

Carl,

As happens so often in this world, the answer to your questions are......yes. What I mean is, no one side has the market cornered. There are those who view bonsai as an art form, some as a hobby, and others as a means of income (even a few who view it as all three).

I have met the "smug" type who look down their nose at you as if you are nothing (and I always want to inform them that they have a booger hanging out), and, in my opinion, have lost any true passion for the endeavor. They would rather be a professional critic.

I have the highest regards for teachers, and really respect the vast majority of them, but there is an old saying that I think is relevant to the skills of some bonsai "critics" . That saying is this, " Those who can't "do", teach. Those who can't teach those that "do", teach the teachers."

It sounds somewhat ridiculous, but in fact, there are copious examples of this through life. Here's one to consider; I was taking a college class for criminal justice a few years ago. I had been on the police department for about fifteen years. The "teacher" was 24 years old, and had never been a police officer!!! Now, I was willing to give the benefit of the doubt, but it became apparent that this teacher would quickly be seeking other employment if they ever tried to "practice" what they "preached".

I feel the same way about bonsai. I don't want to belittle anybody, so I won't mention names, but I will say that the most vocal bonsai critic I know has never, ever, touched a bonsai in my presence. Because of this, I doubt their ability. At the same time, I have met several extremely talented people, who are as meek as lambs. Their ability is immediately evident.

Art, hobby, sales, or any combination, if you aren't "practicing" bonsai, you're missing out on bonsai. It's great to be able to rattle off botanical names with conviction, but it's much more impressive to use the material to create a subject that provokes emotion.

Best regards to all,

John

In my opinion "cookie cutter" is a way to mass produce an item so as to be able exploit that item's popularity to make money. If ironic, volatile or destructive sells that's what they throw on the assembly line. The record companies today tend to find a "cookie cutter" sound and try to recruit as many bands as possible with that sound until it is no longer popular. The musical artists have longevity because they are able to transcend that "fit the mold" mentallity and weather the storm through think and thin. How many more cliches can I use ?

I would suggest that only the creator, designer, craftsman, instantiator or whatever you want to call yourself can answer the question "Is this art?"

The reason for this is because I believe it is truly not the result that defines it as art as much as it is the journey to reach that result. It is what you put into it that counts not what comes out. The more you commit yourself to your art the better it will become but only when you allow yourself to believe you are an artist.

As a side note but probably more important, thank you all for your wonderful contributions to this forum, I have learned alot in the short time I have been reading it.

Many happy returns,
JP