I might be hung for saying what I'm thinking, but there are worse reasons to be hung I guess, so here it goes...

I am not sure that the typical western mind can truly grasp the art that is within a bonsai, we have not been trained to do so. It could be classified as "zen art".

To be come one with something, to grasp a glimpse of the unfathomable...to see the complexity within the simplicity, is beyound most westerners only because they have been raised and educated in a western culture.

I guess I am trying to say that it's a mindset, the same mindset that makes one man see a painting as just a picture and another man weep with joy.

Maybe you either get it or you don't.

For your reading pleasure... http://arts.ucsc.edu/faculty/lieberman/zen.html

Carl, two threads in the past really influenced my thinking about Bonsai: One on the history of Bonsai, largely by Walter Pall; the other which introduced me to the concept of Wabi/Sabi, I think, by Andy Ruttledge. This one promises to have as profound an effect on how I think about Bonsai as those two did.

I couldn't resist "cracking wise" at Attila's misspelling, but what is really impressive is not only your original comments but the responses it has evoked.

I think what has so impressed me about this thread is the insight it has given me into my taste in art in general and bonsai in particular. Also, the relationship between art and the ego of the artist.

Amazing thread!

Fred

Carl,

Bonsai, paintings, sculptures are crafted in may styles, most appeal to some but rarely to all. So too modern arts hip cynicism and cutting irony will lose its impact as society changes. The works of Toulouse-Lautrec, bordered on scandalous when they first appeared, today they are considered mild, quaint, almost sentimental. Diego Rivera shocked and offended many, now his paintings are considered in the same vein as the “social realism” of the Soviet Union or Nazi Germany, passé, but pretty.

I see irony every time I see a bonsai that is highly sharied and jinned. The irony is that man has often taken a vibrant, healthy tree and decided that to make it “look old” it needs to be grotesquely maimed, usually with little living material left. Yes in nature this does happen to trees, but the irony seems to be, to me at least, the more tortured the tree the greater the artist. I think in the inverse. To my preferences, a smooth, sleek tree, well balanced and looking like a mature ground planted tree would be more artistically satisfying. To replicate a tree I would have cut down as firewood it not what I chose to collect. Others of course are entitled to enjoy what they wish. Bonsai should not be a pastiche.

The only irony I see is that, "there a lot that can talk about art, but I have yet to hear how to apply it to bonsai."

Calling bonsai artistic without a reason as to how or why it got to that point is pointless. I still think the whole thing is based in talent. Pure and simple..

O_
/|\ Al

this is a quite useless argument, its all opinion against opinion and everyones opinion is different. If its art or not it's what the creator designer or artists thinks of his tree.

al, i hope to answer you question simply and quickly:

sculpting is considered an art form, bonsai has been described as sculpting (commonly refered to as training, wiring, etc.) a tree, therefore:

sculpting=art, bonsai=sculpting, so in fact bonsai=art

now whether or not you want to believe that it is purely based on talent is your right, we all have our opinions, but that being said, carl bergstrom is a painter, a very TALENTED one, and painter=artist, so can we not conclude that the level of talent the artist/person doing bonsai has is not a part of whether or not bonsai can be considered art?

chris

B.adair,

I think you misunderstood the purpose of this thread. Opinions are not supposed to be against each other. They are supposed to express a person's view about the subject, so that sometimes we might just learn something if we really care.

And opinions about art are supposed to be different. That's the nature of the subject. It's natural to be so.

Arguments are useless only if the person who voices them adds nothing but instead distracts from the discussions.

Regards,
Attila

On this thread, as on most involving the art aspects of Bonsai, comments have appeared by some of the participants who seem, somehow, to find such discussions offensive. This reflects a mentality that is simply unable to "explore" a subject rather than defend a point of view. It is a shame to see how much in life these people are missing.

Perhaps their protests reflect a sort of personal frustration, a kind of cry for help at their inability to enjoy the experience of exchanging views in a companionable way with friends whose experience in life has lead them to somewhat different views on life and bonsai. How sad it is to see people who identify themselves so closelywith their opinions that they apparently feel threatened by any expression of opinion that differs from their own.

Fred

fred, good point, and to some extent probably correct, i for one though just enjoy knowing the opinions of the others here and sharing my own, lets me almost know the people i talk to without actually knowing them.

chris

Chris, just what do you mean: to some extent PROBABLY. I just can't belive you don't immediately agree totally with what is so obviously completely and entirely CORRECT! Do you seriously think that such a wishy-washy attitude has any place on this or any other Bonsai forum? And what do such statements have to do with Bonsai anyway?

Just kidding around with you, Chris. Of course. Actually, thanks for your kind comment. Feeling appreciated keeps the creative juices flowing!

Fred