Re: [IBC] Nebary on fig -- how to?

Dad

I understand your problem. Trees taken from the ground or from nursery pots
do not usually have a root configuration suitable for immediate transfer to
a slab planting. To accomplish a flat root mass, you must begin a slow
process of training which could take several years.
The first step is to remove those thick vertical roots that you mention.
Then plant your tree either in the ground over a flat tile or piece of
slate, or in a bonsai tray.
This would allow the tree to develop the fine root hairs necessary for a
slab planting. Of course, if the removal of the thick roots would leave you
with no other rootage, this procedure could not be used. In such a case, I
would suggest that this tree should be planted in a container rather than a
slab.
Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: "Vladimir" <evesq@UK2.NET>
To: <BONSAI@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sent: Monday, June 28, 2004 8:19 AM
Subject: [IBC] Nebary on fig -- how to?


> Hello,
>
> I train some 1 y.o. figs (ficus carica) grown from seeds. Those figs are
> about 2-3 cm (about 1 inch) thick, during the year they were repotted
twice
> and cutted -- they grows very fast. I did nothing with roots.
>
> Yesterday I tried to develop nebary: I removed the soil from first fig's
> root and planned to place roots star-like, develope plain root system,
etc.
> However, I found 4 finger-thick roots growed horisontally for 3 cm and
then
> grows stright down. How to place such roots horisontally -- I can't
imagine.
> I placed the tree on a rock, but I don't delighted by result.
>
> What shall I do? Gridle my trees or try to wire roots?
>
> Thank you,
> Vladimir.
>
>
************************************************** **************************
****
> ++++Sponsored, in part, by John Quinn++++
>
************************************************** **************************
****
> >>-->> The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ <<--<<
> +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail BONSAI-REQUEST@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM +++++

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by John Quinn++++
************************************************** ******************************
>>-->> The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ <<--<<
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail BONSAI-REQUEST@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM +++++

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Richard Patefield

On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 09:20:21 -0400, you wrote:

>Of course, if the removal of the thick roots would leave you
>with no other rootage, this procedure could not be used.

Hmmm, I don't like to disagree but a statement of such definitive
certainty is almost crying out for someone to do so

Depending on where you are Vladimir, you could probably remove the
roots completely and treat the plants as cuttings, repeating this
process untill you get the thickness or the root formation that you
desire.

Others will comment on this I'm sure.

Richard

>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Vladimir" <evesq@UK2.NET>
>To: <BONSAI@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
>Sent: Monday, June 28, 2004 8:19 AM
>Subject: [IBC] Nebary on fig -- how to?
>
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> I train some 1 y.o. figs (ficus carica) grown from seeds. Those figs are
>> about 2-3 cm (about 1 inch) thick, during the year they were repotted
>twice
>> and cutted -- they grows very fast. I did nothing with roots.
>>
>> Yesterday I tried to develop nebary: I removed the soil from first fig's
>> root and planned to place roots star-like, develope plain root system,
>etc.
>> However, I found 4 finger-thick roots growed horisontally for 3 cm and
>then
>> grows stright down. How to place such roots horisontally -- I can't
>imagine.
>> I placed the tree on a rock, but I don't delighted by result.
>>
>> What shall I do? Gridle my trees or try to wire roots?
>>
>> Thank you,
>> Vladimir.
>>
>>
>************************************************** **************************
>****
>> ++++Sponsored, in part, by John Quinn++++
>>
>************************************************** **************************
>****
>> >>-->> The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ <<--<<
>> +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail BONSAI-REQUEST@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM +++++
>
>************************************************** ******************************
> ++++Sponsored, in part, by John Quinn++++
>************************************************** ******************************
>>>-->> The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ <<--<<
> +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail BONSAI-REQUEST@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM +++++

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by John Quinn++++
************************************************** ******************************
>>-->> The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ <<--<<
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail BONSAI-REQUEST@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM +++++

Dad

Beg to disagree, Richard. To take a 1" trunk and try to treat it as a
cutting is not plausible in my book. Did you ever try it?
Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Patefield" <r.patefield@ZEN.CO.UK>
To: <BONSAI@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sent: Monday, June 28, 2004 11:11 AM
Subject: Re: [IBC] Nebary on fig -- how to?


> On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 09:20:21 -0400, you wrote:
>
> >Of course, if the removal of the thick roots would leave you
> >with no other rootage, this procedure could not be used.
>
> Hmmm, I don't like to disagree but a statement of such definitive
> certainty is almost crying out for someone to do so
>
> Depending on where you are Vladimir, you could probably remove the
> roots completely and treat the plants as cuttings, repeating this
> process untill you get the thickness or the root formation that you
> desire.
>
> Others will comment on this I'm sure.
>
> Richard
>
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Vladimir" <evesq@UK2.NET>
> >To: <BONSAI@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
> >Sent: Monday, June 28, 2004 8:19 AM
> >Subject: [IBC] Nebary on fig -- how to?
> >
> >
> >> Hello,
> >>
> >> I train some 1 y.o. figs (ficus carica) grown from seeds. Those figs
are
> >> about 2-3 cm (about 1 inch) thick, during the year they were repotted
> >twice
> >> and cutted -- they grows very fast. I did nothing with roots.
> >>
> >> Yesterday I tried to develop nebary: I removed the soil from first
fig's
> >> root and planned to place roots star-like, develope plain root system,
> >etc.
> >> However, I found 4 finger-thick roots growed horisontally for 3 cm and
> >then
> >> grows stright down. How to place such roots horisontally -- I can't
> >imagine.
> >> I placed the tree on a rock, but I don't delighted by result.
> >>
> >> What shall I do? Gridle my trees or try to wire roots?
> >>
> >> Thank you,
> >> Vladimir.
> >>
> >>
>
>************************************************** *************************
*
> >****
> >> ++++Sponsored, in part, by John Quinn++++
> >>
>
>************************************************** *************************
*
> >****
> >> >>-->> The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/
<<--<<
> >> +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail BONSAI-REQUEST@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM
+++++
> >
>
>************************************************** *************************
*****
> > ++++Sponsored, in part, by John Quinn++++
>
>************************************************** *************************
*****
> >>>-->> The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ <<--<<
> > +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail BONSAI-REQUEST@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM
+++++
>
>
************************************************** **************************
****
> ++++Sponsored, in part, by John Quinn++++
>
************************************************** **************************
****
> >>-->> The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ <<--<<
> +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail BONSAI-REQUEST@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM +++++

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by John Quinn++++
************************************************** ******************************
>>-->> The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ <<--<<
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail BONSAI-REQUEST@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM +++++

Jim Lewis

> Beg to disagree, Richard. To take a 1" trunk and try to treat
it as a
> cutting is not plausible in my book. Did you ever try it?
> Marty

Seems that it is in Florida (even North Florida). I recently
took an F salicifolia workshop and we were directed to cut all
roots (and branches, as a matter of fact) off the trees to, in
effect, start over. They had < 2-inch bases. It is sprouting
well (tho another one that I didn't cut _quite_ as much is badly
in need of a haircut). So we'll see.

Jim Lewis - jklewis@nettally.com - Tallahassee, FL - Only where
people have learned to appreciate and cherish the landscape and
its living cover will they treat it with the care and respect it
should have - Paul Bigelow Sears.

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by John Quinn++++
************************************************** ******************************
>>-->> The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ <<--<<
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail BONSAI-REQUEST@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM +++++

Richard Patefield

On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 13:39:06 -0400, you wrote:

>Beg to disagree, Richard. To take a 1" trunk and try to treat it as a
>cutting is not plausible in my book. Did you ever try it?
>Marty

In England? No.

Send me a misting bench and a bunch of plants and I'll have a go tho'.

Richard



>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Richard Patefield" <r.patefield@ZEN.CO.UK>
>To: <BONSAI@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
>Sent: Monday, June 28, 2004 11:11 AM
>Subject: Re: [IBC] Nebary on fig -- how to?
>
>
>> On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 09:20:21 -0400, you wrote:
>>
>> >Of course, if the removal of the thick roots would leave you
>> >with no other rootage, this procedure could not be used.
>>
>> Hmmm, I don't like to disagree but a statement of such definitive
>> certainty is almost crying out for someone to do so
>>
>> Depending on where you are Vladimir, you could probably remove the
>> roots completely and treat the plants as cuttings, repeating this
>> process untill you get the thickness or the root formation that you
>> desire.
>>
>> Others will comment on this I'm sure.
>>
>> Richard
>>
>> >----- Original Message -----
>> >From: "Vladimir" <evesq@UK2.NET>
>> >To: <BONSAI@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
>> >Sent: Monday, June 28, 2004 8:19 AM
>> >Subject: [IBC] Nebary on fig -- how to?
>> >
>> >
>> >> Hello,
>> >>
>> >> I train some 1 y.o. figs (ficus carica) grown from seeds. Those figs
>are
>> >> about 2-3 cm (about 1 inch) thick, during the year they were repotted
>> >twice
>> >> and cutted -- they grows very fast. I did nothing with roots.
>> >>
>> >> Yesterday I tried to develop nebary: I removed the soil from first
>fig's
>> >> root and planned to place roots star-like, develope plain root system,
>> >etc.
>> >> However, I found 4 finger-thick roots growed horisontally for 3 cm and
>> >then
>> >> grows stright down. How to place such roots horisontally -- I can't
>> >imagine.
>> >> I placed the tree on a rock, but I don't delighted by result.
>> >>
>> >> What shall I do? Gridle my trees or try to wire roots?
>> >>
>> >> Thank you,
>> >> Vladimir.
>> >>
>> >>
>>
>>************************************************** *************************
>*
>> >****
>> >> ++++Sponsored, in part, by John Quinn++++
>> >>
>>
>>************************************************** *************************
>*
>> >****
>> >> >>-->> The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/
><<--<<
>> >> +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail BONSAI-REQUEST@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM
>+++++
>> >
>>
>>************************************************** *************************
>*****
>> > ++++Sponsored, in part, by John Quinn++++
>>
>>************************************************** *************************
>*****
>> >>>-->> The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ <<--<<
>> > +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail BONSAI-REQUEST@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM
>+++++
>>
>>
>************************************************** **************************
>****
>> ++++Sponsored, in part, by John Quinn++++
>>
>************************************************** **************************
>****
>> >>-->> The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ <<--<<
>> +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail BONSAI-REQUEST@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM +++++
>
>************************************************** ******************************
> ++++Sponsored, in part, by John Quinn++++
>************************************************** ******************************
>>>-->> The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ <<--<<
> +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail BONSAI-REQUEST@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM +++++

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by John Quinn++++
************************************************** ******************************
>>-->> The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ <<--<<
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail BONSAI-REQUEST@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM +++++

Vladimir

Dear Sirs,

maybe it is worth to make an incision in the lower (inner) place of a root
curve? It will make a root thinner and more flexible, however saves the
thick look. Optically ;-)

I am from Saint Petersburg, Russia. Figs grow indoor only.

Thanks,
Vladimir.


"Richard Patefield" <r.patefield@ZEN.CO.UK> wrote in message
news:fkc0e01nitdk657rorspmtokhf3hmulc4u@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 09:20:21 -0400, you wrote:
>
> >Of course, if the removal of the thick roots would leave you
> >with no other rootage, this procedure could not be used.
>
> Hmmm, I don't like to disagree but a statement of such definitive
> certainty is almost crying out for someone to do so
>
> Depending on where you are Vladimir, you could probably remove the
> roots completely and treat the plants as cuttings, repeating this
> process untill you get the thickness or the root formation that you
> desire.
>
> Others will comment on this I'm sure.
>
> Richard

Peter K.

in my limited experience and through reading, i have learned that ficus
carica are difficult to root from cuttings, at least they are for me, I've
succesfully rooting other types but not carica.

--
Peter Kulibert zone 4a/5b

"Jim Lewis" <jklewis@NETTALLY.COM> wrote in message
news:00f601c45d3b$e44690e0$39112cc7@pavilion...
> > Beg to disagree, Richard. To take a 1" trunk and try to treat
> it as a
> > cutting is not plausible in my book. Did you ever try it?
> > Marty
>
> Seems that it is in Florida (even North Florida). I recently
> took an F salicifolia workshop and we were directed to cut all
> roots (and branches, as a matter of fact) off the trees to, in
> effect, start over. They had < 2-inch bases. It is sprouting
> well (tho another one that I didn't cut _quite_ as much is badly
> in need of a haircut). So we'll see.
>
> Jim Lewis - jklewis@nettally.com - Tallahassee, FL - Only where
> people have learned to appreciate and cherish the landscape and
> its living cover will they treat it with the care and respect it
> should have - Paul Bigelow Sears.
>
>
************************************************** **************************
****
> ++++Sponsored, in part, by John Quinn++++
>
************************************************** **************************
****
> >>-->> The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/
<<--<<
> +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail BONSAI-REQUEST@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM
+++++

Vladimir

Peter,

Cutted branches from my figs gave roots in the water during a week, so it
was easy. However, I didn't tryed it with 1inch trunk.

BUT the question is: will the gridling less effective than total roots
cutting?

Thanks,
Vladimir.

"Peter K." <pkulibert@charter.net> wrote in message
news:10e157vaa8sg828@corp.supernews.com...
> in my limited experience and through reading, i have learned that ficus
> carica are difficult to root from cuttings, at least they are for me,
I've
> succesfully rooting other types but not carica.

Beckenbach, Jay

A lurker here who reads the digest. This gives a good perspective of the
threads as you can compare the different responses for an overall view.

In this thread (which I've tagged to the original message), everyone seems
to be missing the point. Vladimir's problem is the classical potbound plant
issue of roots that go horizontal for a short way and then dive to the
bottom of the pot. His seedlings do this after 3cm (or just over 1 inch for
us on the archaic imperial system). If I read his message right, he has
tried to disguise this flaw by planting them over a rock (not a slab
planting but a "root over rock" planting). He doesn't like the look. So
he still has a root problem.

Now he wants a suggestion on how to correct his problem. He grows tropicals
out of zone, in Russia. Not conducive to ground growing. Although Russia
is a huge country, I don't believe it has tropical areas. He'll probably
have to keep his plants in pots so they can be protected during the winter.

My first reaction, like many on the list, was "cuttings". He may not have
the growing time to do this before he'll have to put his plant under the
lights again for next winter (where they'll probably sulk rather than grow).
Also, one response made reference to this plant not reacting well to the
cutting process, making a cutting of this thickness problematic. So, how
can he get better rootage on his figs?

Here's my suggestion.
1. find the biggest shallow "pot" possible, a bulb pot, a cut down nursery
pot or perhaps a wood box/tray.
2. cut one of the 4 roots off at a downward facing angle just before it
takes the vertical turn and treat that root with rooting hormone.
3. plant in a coarse growing material, perlite, fine gravel, etc. with some
organic mix added.
4. keep the plant watered as if the root was not cut, that is, just do the
standard watering, monitored with the Persiano Pick.
5. next summer, perhaps about now or a little later, repot the plant and if
the cut root has issued fine roots, then proceed by cutting two more roots
and repeating the process. The new roots can be spread if they appear to be
strong enough. If no new roots have grown then he'll know this doesn't work
for him and/or this type of fig and try something else.
6. assuming everything has gone well, two years from now the last root can
be treated and nebari development can begin in earnest.

Now I try to stay with native (read "in zone") material, so I'm no expert.
So if anyone has a better idea, improvements or corrections, I'm sure both
Vladimir and I will be happy to hear them.

Have fun - jay

Jay Beckenbach - Melrose, FL - Zone 8b/9a - jbecken@ufl.edu

-----Original Message-----
From: Vladimir [mailto:evesq@UK2.NET]
Sent: Monday, June 28, 2004 8:19 AM
Subject: Nebary on fig -- how to?


Hello,

I train some 1 y.o. figs (ficus carica) grown from seeds. Those figs are
about 2-3 cm (about 1 inch) thick, during the year they were repotted twice
and cutted -- they grows very fast. I did nothing with roots.

Yesterday I tried to develop nebary: I removed the soil from first fig's
root and planned to place roots star-like, develope plain root system, etc.
However, I found 4 finger-thick roots growed horisontally for 3 cm and then
grows stright down. How to place such roots horisontally -- I can't imagine.
I placed the tree on a rock, but I don't delighted by result.

What shall I do? Gridle my trees or try to wire roots?

Thank you,
Vladimir.

************************************************** **************************
****
++++Sponsored, in part, by John Quinn++++
************************************************** **************************
****
>>-->> The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ <<--<<
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail BONSAI-REQUEST@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM +++++

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by John Quinn++++
************************************************** ******************************
>>-->> The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ <<--<<
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail BONSAI-REQUEST@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM +++++