[IBC] Turface

Kitsune Miko

--- "David J. Bockman" <djb@BUNABAYASHI.COM> wrote:
> Respectfully, they're different. Turface is
> Montmorillonite clay, Profile is
> Arcillite clay. The latter is also fired hotter,
> resulting in a material
> that is almost a ceramic, with a lower CEC than
> Turface.
>
Good to know the difference. To the naked eye and
even one glasses clad, they do look the same.

What does CEC mean?

S

=====
"Art does not take kindly to facts, is helpless to grapple with theories, and is killed outright by a sermon." Agnes Ropplier
(added to the above)
"How many things in life do we bludgeon with facts, render helpless
with theories, and kill with sermons? If art can help us go beyond
these patterns, we certainly need it in our lives."
Anne Wilson Schaef
From, "Women Who Do Too Much Calandar 2004."

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Billy M. Rhodes

In a message dated 5/9/2004 11:11:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
kits@PACBELL.NET writes:

> What does CEC mean?
>

I was looking for a textbook definition, but it stands for "cation exchange
coefficient" and refers to the ability of a soil or soil component to hold and
release moisture and nutrients over time.
In other words a high CEC would mean that a high percentage of your
fertilizer salts in solution would be trapped by the soil particles (Turface) and
released as the plant needs it.
A low CEC means your fertilizer just runs through the soil and out the bottom
of the pot.
(Even hard particles of fertilizer must dissolve in water before the plant
can use them. In many cases they must also change their chemical nature. One
argument against so called natural fertilizers such as manure is that it must
break down into its chemical parts before plants can use it. Of course this is
also an argument for, since these fertilizers feed for longer periods.)



Billy on the Florida Space Coast
BSF Annual Convention May 28 - 31, 2004 Radisson Hotel, Cape Canaveral,
Florida
Sponsored by The Bonsai Society of Brevard and the Treasure Coast Bonsai
Society
http://www.bonsaisocietyofbrevard.org/2004/2004.html

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Brian Berggoetz

I won't recommend Oil-Dri after trying it this spring for the first
time. I have noticed on some trees that didn't make the repot, (it
couldn't have been my fault), the Oil-Dri was already breaking down.
Some had started turning to dust and som were breaking down into fine
size particles. In a word, junk. I'll never use it again. One clay
type particle I am experimenting with is an aquatic gardening substrate
called Flourite. It is a harder clay than Profile, also heavier. The
kicker is that the plant actually feeds off the clay particles. The
roots, when touching the particle, receives Iron and trace elements. In
aquaria, I have verified the substantial growth improvement of Flourite
over sand and even Profile, which is very good. I had extra last spring
and put it in with a ficus benjamina. I then watched it outgrow
everything else and was very healthy. I have recently started some more
controlled experiments. Will share them when I have some results.
Brian Tucson, AZ Sunset Zone 12

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Iris Cohen

<< One clay type particle I am experimenting with is an aquatic gardening
substrate called Flourite. It is a harder clay than Profile, also heavier.
The kicker is that the plant actually feeds off the clay particles. >>

I have been using Flourite as a top dressing where moss is not available or
doesn't work. It makes an attractive ground cover. I would like to know from
your experiments if it is better than Turface as a soil ingredient.
Iris,
Central NY, Zone 5a, Sunset Zone 40
"If we see light at the end of the tunnel, It's the light of the oncoming
train."
Robert Lowell (1917-1977)

Dave G

I was able to buy Turface from my local Agway store. They didn't have it in
stock but they do carry it and the manager was very nice about ordering me a
bag


Dave G
CT Zone 6

gnarlywood

[QUOTE=Billy M. Rhodes]In a message dated 5/9/2004 11:11:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
kits@PACBELL.NET writes:

> What does CEC mean?

I was looking for a textbook definition, but it stands for "cation exchange
coefficient" and refers to the ability of a soil or soil component to hold and
release moisture and nutrients over time.
In other words a high CEC would mean that a high percentage of your
fertilizer salts in solution would be trapped by the soil particles (Turface) and
released as the plant needs it.
A low CEC means your fertilizer just runs through the soil and out the bottom
of the pot.

Billy on the Florida Space Coast

Greetings,

I too thought for the past 10 years that CEC was Cation exchange COEFFICIENT. This IS used, but far more commonly it means "Cation exchange CAPACITY".

I noticed this recently while researching the CEC of charcoal (there aint much info on it!) If one Googles "Cation exchange COEFFICIENT" one gets "Results 1 - 20 of about 34 for "cation exchangecoefficient" as compared to "Results 1 - 100 of about 70,600 for "cation exchangecapacity" OR "cation exchangecapacities".

Not a Biggie, but searching with the wrong combination slowed me a little. I thought others should know.

Billy's description is generally accurate, although I don't think moisture retention is part of it. Further, the CEC changes with pH.

Here's some quotes with URLs:
http://www.nalms.org/glossary/lkword_c.htm
CATION EXCHANGE CAPACITY (CEC)-The total of exchangeable cations that a soil can adsorb; expressed in milliequivalents per 100 grams (g) of soil.

http://www.grdc.com.au/growers/res_...9/part3_2_1.htm
Cation exchange capacity (CEC) is defined as the measure of the total capacity of a soil to hold exchangeable cations and indicates the negative charge present per unit mass of soil (Peverill et al., 1999). A high CEC is regarded as favourable as it contributes to the capacity of soils to retain plant nutrient cations. CEC is most commonly expressed as centimols of positive charge per kilogram of soil (cmolc /kg)

http://www.ees.adelaide.edu.au/icooper/glossary/c.htm
Cation exchange capacity - The number of negatively charged sites on a soil which can react with and hold cations (positively charged particles). The cation exchange capacity is high for clays and humus, and low for sand.


http://home.infinet.net/teban/substrat.htm
CEC - cation exchange capacity. The ability to capture and hold positive ion nutrients such as Mg, Mn, Fe, Cu, B, Ca, K, Zn, Mo, Co, Na and Ni as well as nitrogen in the cation NH4+.
Cation Exchange Capacity of Common Materials

Soil Component

CEC (cmol/Kg)

humus

200

peat

100-150

vermiculite

150

smectites

100

illite

30

chlorite

30

kaolinite

8

Fe, Al oxides(laterite)

4



------------------------

These just scratch the surface - there are tons more.

sincerely,
Gnarlywood

pootsie

The closest nursery in my new area does not carry turface (I've been using Schultz clay soil conditioner).

They DO carry Espoma brand "Soil Perfector"
http://www.espoma.com/content.aspx?type=sp

Anyone ever use this stuff?
Does it compare at all to turface or more like haydite?
Input?

TA,
pootsie

__________________
p.s. My cat is a bonsaiTALK Master.
Columbus Bonsai Society

DavidWheeler

I am new to this forum but your thread about Turface caught my attention. I have just recently been able to acquire some "Turface"- we also live in an area where the material is not redily available. I have done some researching and found the Shultz's clay soil conditioner is actually chemically very similar to "Turface". However if you ask sales reps there are actually three "Turface" products each w/ it's own purpose. I also took to heart an article about sifting the material thru a 1/8" screen. Well interestingly enough, you get approximately 50% usable product w/ the Shultz version and about 30% w/ Turface MVP (which I am told has the most consistent size). I am in the process of trying to learn more about the product, as it certainly appears in several articles about bonsai soil. Will keep you informed as I learn more.