[IBC] Satsuki problem, soils ( I changed the title as subject drifted)

dalecochoy

----- Original Message -----

Subject: Re: [IBC] Satsuki problem - bark splitting

> Kevin said:
> > I can't say if this happens in a free draining soil as I have yet to
> > transfer any of my Satsuki over to expensive Japanese proprietary brands
> > such as Kanuma. Mine are grown in peat and bark based mixtures which
> > can't really be described as free draining.


> The Japanese soils are poor vehicles for the transfer of fertilizer, and
for this reason frequent flushing of fertilizer and the addition of organic
content (from cakes) is an excellent practice. However, the 300 year old
azalea was planted in a standard mix of turface, haydite, orchid bark, and
coarse sand.
> Cordially,
> Michael Persiano

Mike,
I'm kind of suprised to read that you use a similar mix to what I've been
using for 25 years ( except I don't use the turface with haydite). I thought
I had read in the past that you used Japanese soils on azaleas. Maybe I'm
wrong. BTW, with our freeze/thaw/freeze/thaw Ohio winters the japanese soils
quickly turn to mush. I've seen a few REALLY nice trees dead over winter and
when pulled out in spring it looked like two-year-old cat litter sopping
mush!
My normal soil FOR EVERYTHING ( Including azaleas) is haydite, large
silica sand, orchid bark and either a LITTLE forest humus or decompossed
pine bark ( whichever I manage to find when I need it all of a sudden). For
last couple years I also add in a SMALL amount of a product from our sewage
plant which is a composted sawdust/bark and "waste". good stuff, we used to
till it into our city flower beds every Spring here in Akron. Maybe a couple
coffee cans to a wheelbarrow. They say to keep below 15% of mix, so no
problem.
With the exception of the recent "black magic" :>) I've used that for many
years now.
Heck, I don't even cover the tops of my azalea pots with magic Japanese
sphagnum moss :>)
My teacher, Keith Scott, FOREVER used a mixture of turface, silica sand and
pro-mix, on everything! After turface became "found" locally for bonsai
mix ( By Tony Mihalik BTW) he/we used that usually instead of turface.
Easier to get and cheaper. I still remember a huge pile of haydite in Keiths
drive for a long time!
BTW, I NEVER saw Keith sift soil...ever! and, in 25 years I can say that
I've also NEVER sifted a cup of soil.
People are always astounded when I tell them that :>)
FYI, for screen I use 1/4" or 1/8" hardware cloth. except for the last year
I've been using up some of that stamped screen for masonry. I had a bunch
left after chimney repairs and couldn't just throw it out! Works fine but
rusts out much quicker than galvanized hardware cloth will last.
As per cakes, yep I like useing mine ( poo ball mix on my webpages) when I
can afford the time to get batches made, ( people keep asking for them but
they take second seat to pottery time) otherwise I use plain old
Miraclegrow.
One last thing ( always gets people as much as not sifting :>)
When I bare root collected stuff to remove clay-ee field soil and pot up in
larger training pots I use a mix of haydite and what-ever kind of smallest
pine bark I can find at the nursery for cheap. I produce roots faster in
this than any bonsai mix I use, AND it's cheaper/easier/quicker to mix, just
doesn't look as nice. The times I've used pre-mixed bagged bonsai soils ( in
'95 when I had a store and used more soil than I could get mixed up myself)
I never got rooting as good as the cheap and dirty haydite/bark mix.. I use
miracle grow with this often for developement.
Go figure!
Regards,
Dale " How can I use unsifted soil?" Cochoy
Wild Things Bonsai Studio, Hartville, Ohio
DaleCochoy@Prodigy.Net http://www.WildThingsBonsai.Com
Specializing in power wood carving tools.
Yakimono no Kokoro bonsai pottery of hand-built stoneware

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Theo

HI
very interesting
one question what is "orchid bark"?

dalecochoy wrote:

> azalea was planted in a standard mix of turface, haydite, orchid bark, and

>>Michael Persiano

> My normal soil FOR EVERYTHING ( Including azaleas) is haydite, large
> silica sand, orchid bark and either a LITTLE forest humus or decompossed
> pine bark
>Dale " How can I use unsifted soil?" Cochoy

Theo_694@hotmail.com MSN messanger / or ICQ 25 666 169 4

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dalecochoy

Theo,
Orchid bark is the ground up sequoia bark that orchid growers use for
potting. Actually you want "Baby" orchid bark which is about 1/4" chunks.
( some of the sizes can get quite large for orchids) Nice and clean with no
dust. It's packaged in 2 or 3 cu/ft bags. I get mine from an orchid
groweer/supplier so I've never looked elsewhere for it. Try looking in
yellow pages or calling a big nursery for grower info locally.I don't think
it's really any better than finer ground pine bark ( if you can find it) or
partially decompossed fine pine bark potting component ( even harder to
find, (Try "Summit" BTW) but it's usually, for me anyway, easier to find
and is pretty good sized and uniform for bonsai, and, it looks nice in the
pot.

BTW, this is a good spot to pop in something I forgot to mention in my
earlier mail about soils "I" use and fertilizer. I forgot to mention that a
couple times a year now I'll sprinkle some "Espoma" fertilizer on trees.
I've been using it about 5 years since I started seeing it on shelves. It's
all natural powder that is VERY similar to ingredients in my poo balls,
except it's ground fine. It comes in several NPK mixes and some of the types
are "plant tone", "tree tone" , "holly tone" and I think maybe a couple
others. I have also , a couple times, thrown a couple handfulls into soil
mix when I was mixing up a wheelbarrow for something specific in mind. It's
a real good product and fairly cheap in 10 or 25 pound bags.
Regards,
Dale

----- Original Message -----
From: "Theo" <byjoke@CH.INTER.NET>
Subject: Re: [IBC] Satsuki problem, soils ( I changed the title as subject


> HI
> very interesting
> one question what is "orchid bark"?
>
> dalecochoy wrote:
>
> > azalea was planted in a standard mix of turface, haydite, orchid bark,
and
>
> >>Michael Persiano
>
> > My normal soil FOR EVERYTHING ( Including azaleas) is haydite, large
> > silica sand, orchid bark and either a LITTLE forest humus or decompossed
> > pine bark
> >Dale " How can I use unsifted soil?" Cochoy

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Michael Persiano

In a message dated 5/22/2004 12:10:31 PM Eastern Standard Time,
dalecochoy@PRODIGY.NET writes:
Mike,
I'm kind of suprised to read that you use a similar mix to what I've been
using for 25 years ( except I don't use the turface with haydite). I thought
I had read in the past that you used Japanese soils on azaleas. Maybe I'm
wrong. BTW, with our freeze/thaw/freeze/thaw Ohio winters the japanese soils
quickly turn to mush. I've seen a few REALLY nice trees dead over winter and
when pulled out in spring it looked like two-year-old cat litter sopping
mush!
Dale:

In general, I am using Akadama with the Japanese Pines. I would have to
agree with you that these soils do not hold up over the long haul; however, I have
yet to see such outstanding root development in Pines with high-aggregate
based soil mixes.

The outcome is more frequent soil changes. As for the impact of winter on
Akadama, the Japanese White Pines potted in this soil were frozen for
approximately 2-3 months with no adverse effects on their health.

Cordially,

Michael Persiano
hometown.aol.com/iasnob

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Theo

HI
dalecochoy wrote:

> Theo,
> Orchid bark is the ground up sequoia bark that orchid growers use for
> potting.
Thanks , I have some sequoias in the park nar my home and some bark
can be taken without damaging the tree

> earlier mail about soils "I" use and fertilizer. I forgot to mention that a
> couple times a year now I'll sprinkle some "Espoma" fertilizer on trees.

I live in Switzerland so I do not know what it is ..
I have some american products taht II bought while tarvelling and
could make a good reserve of superthrive for few years ..:-)
my next incoming problem is to renew 1-2 quarters of Fish emulsion
my son was lately in NY but could not find it ...
I am trying throught the net to see if some company can send it over to
europe
we have not this kind of fertilizers
thanks again Dale for all informations
Theo

Theo_694@hotmail.com MSN messanger / or ICQ 25 666 169 4

L'Umiltà è la Peggiore delle Presunzioni
(la Rochefocault)

«»«»«» Just for today...be happy «»«»«»

Jim Lewis

> HI
> dalecochoy wrote:
>
> > Theo,
> > Orchid bark is the ground up sequoia bark that orchid growers
use for
> > potting.
> Thanks , I have some sequoias in the park nar my home and
some bark
> can be taken without damaging the tree


> I live in Switzerland so I do not know what it is ..
> I have some american products taht II bought while tarvelling
and
> could make a good reserve of superthrive for few years ..:-)
> my next incoming problem is to renew 1-2 quarters of Fish
emulsion
> my son was lately in NY but could not find it ...
> I am trying throught the net to see if some company can send it
over to
> europe
> we have not this kind of fertilizers
> thanks again Dale for all informations
> Theo

Gosh, Theo, I find it hard to believe that no one in Europe uses
fish emulsion fertilizers. Maybe someone on list can suggest a
source. I'd guess any of the European Community countries that
have large fishing fleets will produce some.

As for the Superthrive, I wouldn't waste your money importing the
stuff.

Jim Lewis - jklewis@nettally.com - Tallahassee, FL - Only where
people have learned to appreciate and cherish the landscape and
its living cover will they treat it with the care and respect it
should have - Paul Bigelow Sears.

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dalecochoy

----- Original Message -----
From: IASNOB@aol.com
To: dalecochoy@PRODIGY.NET ; BONSAI@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM
Sent: Monday, May 24, 2004 5:50 AM
Subject: Re: [IBC] Satsuki problem, soils ( I changed the title as subject drifted)


In a message dated 5/22/2004 12:10:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, dalecochoy@PRODIGY.NET writes:
Mike,
I'm kind of suprised to read that you use a similar mix to what I've been
using for 25 years ( except I don't use the turface with haydite). I thought
I had read in the past that you used Japanese soils on azaleas. Maybe I'm
wrong. BTW, with our freeze/thaw/freeze/thaw Ohio winters the japanese soils
quickly turn to mush. I've seen a few REALLY nice trees dead over winter and
when pulled out in spring it looked like two-year-old cat litter sopping
mush!
Dale:

In general, I am using Akadama with the Japanese Pines. I would have to agree with you that these soils do not hold up over the long haul; however, I have yet to see such outstanding root development in Pines with high-aggregate based soil mixes.

The outcome is more frequent soil changes. As for the impact of winter on Akadama, the Japanese White Pines potted in this soil were frozen for approximately 2-3 months with no adverse effects on their health.

Cordially,

Michael Persiano


Mike,
OK,
You stated,
it doesn't hold up long,
better root developement on pines,
more frequent soil changes,
no adverse effects on white pines after 2-3 months of freezing.

I certainly can't argue those points 'cause I don't grow Japanese white pines and I have nothing here potted in Japanese clays.

I'll still stay away though :>)
I was just giving my opinion on what I've SEEN here in NE Ohio. and, after 25 years of using my soils I'm probably not going to buy a bunch of expensive Japanese soils, ( not to mention buying some Japanese White Pines ) to check it out further. :>)

Does that make me stubborn?
:>)

Dale

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dalecochoy

> > I live in Switzerland so I do not know what it is ..
> > I have some american products taht II bought while tarvelling

> > my next incoming problem is to renew 1-2 quarters of Fish
> emulsion
> > my son was lately in NY but could not find it ...
> > I am trying throught the net to see if some company can send it
> over to
> > europe
> > we have not this kind of fertilizers
> > thanks again Dale for all informations
> > Theo

Jim said:
> Gosh, Theo, I find it hard to believe that no one in Europe uses
> fish emulsion fertilizers. Maybe someone on list can suggest a
> source. I'd guess any of the European Community countries that
> have large fishing fleets will produce some.


Theo,
FISH + Water + Blender = Fish Emulsion!!!!
:>)
Dale "Remember Saturday Night Live's Bass-O-Matic" Cochoy

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Jim Lewis

> > > Theo
>
> Jim said:
> > Gosh, Theo, I find it hard to believe that no one in Europe
uses
> > fish emulsion fertilizers. Maybe someone on list can suggest
a
> > source. I'd guess any of the European Community countries
that
> > have large fishing fleets will produce some.
>
>
> Theo,
> FISH + Water + Blender = Fish Emulsion!!!!
> :>)
> Dale "Remember Saturday Night Live's Bass-O-Matic" Cochoy

Well, that would work. But does the blender turn it that ugly
thick s_ _ t brown?

Jim Lewis - jklewis@nettally.com - Tallahassee, FL - Bonsaiests
are like genealogists: We know our roots!

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