[IBC] composted pine bark

Les linfoot

I have fairly often read in this forum about people using composted pine
bark as part of their soil mix, which leads me to ask how exactly does
one compost pine bark? Is it the same as composting yard and kitchen
waste? Do you keep it dark and moist and turn it regularly? Or is
composted pine bark a product you can purchase in the same way regular
gardeners purchase composted steer manure?

And while we are on the subject, I cannot find pine bark locally but
have purchased something called orchid bark which, after a few phone
calls to the company that bags it and ships it to the local garden
centres, I have been informed is all hemlock. If it was fatal for
Socrates, is hemlock OK for my cryptomeria?

Les Linfoot
New Westminster, BC, Canada
Zone 8

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Luke Tulkas

"Les linfoot" <leslinfoot@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:leslinfoot-6D6ABA.22580502082004@news.va.shawcable.net...
> If it was fatal for
> Socrates, is hemlock OK for my cryptomeria?

It's not the same hemlock. Not even close. The hemlock Socrates drank was
Conium maculatum (http://www.ansci.cornell.edu/plants/conium.html ). "Your"
hemlock is a tree of genus Tsuga
(http://www.botanik.uni-bonn.de/conifers/pi/ts/ ). I think it's bark would
be OK for your cryptomeria.

Billy M. Rhodes

In a message dated 8/3/2004 2:55:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
leslinfoot@SHAW.CA writes:

> I have fairly often read in this forum about people using composted pine
> bark as part of their soil mix,

The product I use is sold as "Fafard Soil Conditioner" in a purple bag.
Orchid bark is OK but some of it is much too large and must be ground up before
use, it is also probably very expensive if you have a lot of trees.

Billy on the Florida Space Coast

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Iris Cohen

<< I cannot find pine bark locally but have purchased something called orchid
bark which, after a few phone calls to the company that bags it and ships it to
the local garden centres, I have been informed is all hemlock. If it was fatal
for Socrates, is hemlock OK for my cryptomeria? >>

Socrates' poison hemlock was an entirely different plant, a member of the
Apiaceae. Hemlock bark is from Tsuga canadensis, Canadian hemlock (or another
member of the same genus), a conifer. In this country we use Douglas fir bark,
a byproduct of the plywood industry. If it is safe for orchid roots, it is safe
for bonsai. However, how fine is it ground? I have found that the finest fir
bark available is only suitable for conifer mix. I gather that the finely
ground pine bark necessary for regular mix is only available in Florida.
Iris,
Central NY, Zone 5a, Sunset Zone 40
"If we see light at the end of the tunnel, It's the light of the oncoming
train."
Robert Lowell (1917-1977)

Evergreen Gardenworks

At 05:56 AM 8/3/04 +0000, Les linfoot wrote:
>I have fairly often read in this forum about people using composted pine
>bark as part of their soil mix, which leads me to ask how exactly does
>one compost pine bark?

Les

Perhaps it's heresy, but I don't use composted bark, but rather the
freshest aromatic fir bark I can find. It seems pointless to me to use a
composted bark when what we are trying to do with soiless mixes is achieve
and maintain a large particle size. The major cause of soil collapse is
loss of particle size due to _composting_ of the organic portion. By using
composted bark, you are using a material that already has one foot in the
grave.

I have been using fresh bark in our nursery for over ten years, pallets of
the stuff. No problems yet.



Brent in Northern California
Evergreen Gardenworks USDA Zone 8 Sunset Zone 14
mailto:bonsai@pacific.net
http://www.EvergreenGardenworks.com

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Les linfoot

In article <2n8rllFtvornU1@uni-berlin.de>,
"Luke Tulkas" <luke_tulkas@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> It's not the same hemlock. Not even close. The hemlock Socrates drank was
> Conium maculatum (http://www.ansci.cornell.edu/plants/conium.html ). "Your"
> hemlock is a tree of genus Tsuga
> (http://www.botanik.uni-bonn.de/conifers/pi/ts/ ). I think it's bark would
> be OK for your cryptomeria.
>
>
And Iris Cohen wrote:
> Socrates' poison hemlock was an entirely different plant, a member of the
> Apiaceae. Hemlock bark is from Tsuga canadensis, Canadian hemlock (or another
> member of the same genus), a conifer. In this country we use Douglas fir bark,
> a byproduct of the plywood industry.

And I am very impressed. I mean I knew that it probably wasn't tsuga
canadensis or heterophylla and I was really just being facetious, but I
am impressed that people actually know what kind of hemlock shooter the
old Greek knocked back.

And while i am in reply mode...

Brent at Evergreen Gardenworks wrote:
> The major cause of soil collapse is
>loss of particle size due to _composting_ of the organic portion. By
>using composted bark, you are using a material that already has one
>foot in the grave.

But, Brent, is there not some nutritional value to be gained through the
composting process? I know that when my wife composts kitchen waste,
etc. for her garden, she does it in order to add more than just (for
lack of a better word) fibre to the soil. It works like a slow release
organic fertilizer for her.

Les Linfoot
New Westminster, BC, Canada
Zone 8

Les linfoot

In article <9f.4adb1be8.2e40b8e3@aol.com>,
GOPHERHILL@AOL.COM (Billy M. Rhodes) wrote:

> The product I use is sold as "Fafard Soil Conditioner" in a purple bag.
> Orchid bark is OK but some of it is much too large and must be ground up
> before
> use, it is also probably very expensive if you have a lot of trees.
>
> Billy on the Florida Space Coast


Billy;
I do not have a lot of trees and so buying by the bag is not a big
problem.
Time is the problem because I have to chop the stuff up and I have yet
to find a decent food processor at a garage sale. I end up using a
cutting board and ten inch french chef's knife from my kitchen and I use
up a whole afternoon chopping a bag of the stuff. Then I have to
resharpen the knife. I'd love to find it already chopped, but no luck as
yet.

Jim Lewis

>
> And while i am in reply mode...
>
> Brent at Evergreen Gardenworks wrote:
> > The major cause of soil collapse is
> >loss of particle size due to _composting_ of the organic
portion. By
> >using composted bark, you are using a material that already
has one
> >foot in the grave.
>
> But, Brent, is there not some nutritional value to be gained
through the
> composting process? I know that when my wife composts kitchen
waste,
> etc. for her garden, she does it in order to add more than just
(for
> lack of a better word) fibre to the soil. It works like a slow
release
> organic fertilizer for her.
>

The short answer is: yes.

But!

The actual NUTRITIONAL value of compost is quite small, even for
manure compost. (Manures themselves have a small nutritional
value -- for instance, 1.1-0.8-0.5 for chicken manure, the most
"potent" of the manures.

The main value of compost in the garden is adding "tilth" to the
soil. Tilth is one of those hard-to-define terms, but basically
it means making hard-clay garden (or field) soil permeable, or in
places like south Florida to make very sandy soil hold water for
a bit longer.

Our bonsai soil -- large grains and inorganic -- is 100%
permeable already.

Adding compost to this mix clogs up the pres between soil grains
and makes the soil hold more water than it should and for longer
periods. The result with many trees will be root rot -- and
death. For bonsai, drainage is the MOST important factor in the
soil. Usually the soils we use have absolutely NO nutritional
value. They are, in fact, soil-less. We supply nutrients in
other ways.

Jim Lewis - jklewis@nettally.com - Tallahassee, FL - Bonsaiests
are like genealogists: We know our roots!

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Roberto Alday Delgadillo

Could you talk a little more about this? As I told the forum on a previous message, I don't know why, but here in Mexico almost all the people who works with Bonsais, USE SOIL (at least 70, and of course, I am one of them. Even more, on several books, a
uthors recommend to use certain kind of soils.



Regards,

Roberto

----- Original Message -----
From: Jim Lewis
To: BONSAI@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM
Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 7:51 AM
Subject: Re: [IBC] composted pine bark

Usually the soils we use have absolutely NO nutritional
value. They are, in fact, soil-less. We supply nutrients in
other ways.

Jim Lewis - jklewis@nettally.com - Tallahassee, FL - Bonsaiests
are like genealogists: We know our roots!

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Chris Cochrane++++
************************************************** ******************************
>>-->> The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ <<--<<
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail BONSAI-REQUEST@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM +++++


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++++Sponsored, in part, by Chris Cochrane++++
************************************************** ******************************
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