[IBC] composted pine bark

Marty

Roberto -
Talk to 100 people and you'll probably get 100 different soil mixes. It's
not the soil mix which is so important: it's how you water it, how you feed
it and how much light you give it. Garden soil usually has a high content
of organic material - which means that less water is required than with
inorganic mixes. It also means that, because there is less drainage, you
have to be carefull about root rot.
The important thing is to know is how to deal with the mix you have
available. This can best be accomplished by trial and error.
Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roberto Alday Delgadillo" <ivh@PRODIGY.NET.MX>
To: <BONSAI@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 9:44 AM
Subject: Re: [IBC] composted pine bark


> Could you talk a little more about this? As I told the forum on a previous
message, I don't know why, but here in Mexico almost all the people who
works with Bonsais, USE SOIL (at least 70, and of course, I am one of
them. Even more, on several books, authors recommend to use certain kind of
soils.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Roberto
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jim Lewis
> To: BONSAI@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM
> Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 7:51 AM
> Subject: Re: [IBC] composted pine bark
>
> Usually the soils we use have absolutely NO nutritional
> value. They are, in fact, soil-less. We supply nutrients in
> other ways.
>
> Jim Lewis - jklewis@nettally.com - Tallahassee, FL - Bonsaiests
> are like genealogists: We know our roots!
>
>
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Jim Lewis

Usually the soils we use have absolutely NO nutritional
value. They are, in fact, soil-less. We supply nutrients in
other ways.

=======================
Could you talk a little more about this? As I told the forum on a
previous message, I don't know why, but here in Mexico almost all
the people who works with Bonsais, USE SOIL (at least 70, and
of course, I am one of them. Even more, on several books, authors
recommend to use certain kind of soils.

==============================

As someone else said there are zillions of soil recipes; those
recommended in books are the ones the authors use. We all tend,
sometimes, to be a bit dogmatic about how we each grow our trees.

ONE factor people must take into account when deciding which soil
to use for any given tree is your climate. The only part of
Mexico I'm at all familiar with that that part within 150 miles
of the Mexico-US border, but I'm assuming you're from the Mexico
City area -- or at least south of the border area.

In any even, your summertime climate probably is quite warm --
even hot. In THAT case, there may well be something to be said
for a bonsai soil with more actual "soil" in it. Otherwise your
trees would dry out within minutes of watering.

If I were you and if the bonsai people I knew are capable, I'd go
with what the local people do.

Jim Lewis - jklewis@nettally.com - Tallahassee, FL - Only where
people have learned to appreciate and cherish the landscape and
its living cover will they treat it with the care and respect it
should have - Paul Bigelow Sears.

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Chris Cochrane++++
************************************************** ******************************
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+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail BONSAI-REQUEST@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM +++++

Iris Cohen

<< Brent at Evergreen Gardenworks wrote:
> The major cause of soil collapse is loss of particle size due to _composting_
of the organic portion. By using composted bark, you are using a material that
already has one foot in the grave. >>

I'm a little puzzled at this. Fatal soil compaction results from using organic
matter that is too finely ground or too soft, like peat moss. The pine bark
that is generally used in commercial bonsai soil, like Hollow Creek Farms, is
only partially composted. This is to prevent the problem of bacteria in fresh
bark using too much nitrogen.
Also, if you repot on a regular basis, say every two or three years, the
organic matter won't have turned to mush that fast. Another cause of premature
soil collapse is using an inadequately fired clay component, like cat litter.
That is why we keep emphasizing the need to use a high fired product like
Turface.
Iris,
Central NY, Zone 5a, Sunset Zone 40
"If we see light at the end of the tunnel, It's the light of the oncoming
train."
Robert Lowell (1917-1977)

Brent Walston

At 07:48 AM 8/4/04 +0000, Les wrote:

>And while i am in reply mode...
>
>Brent at Evergreen Gardenworks wrote:
> > The major cause of soil collapse is
> >loss of particle size due to _composting_ of the organic portion. By
> >using composted bark, you are using a material that already has one
> >foot in the grave.
>
>But, Brent, is there not some nutritional value to be gained through the
>composting process? I know that when my wife composts kitchen waste,
>etc. for her garden, she does it in order to add more than just (for
>lack of a better word) fibre to the soil. It works like a slow release
>organic fertilizer for her.

Les

Yes, you are correct, composting does add nutritional value, but it's
irrelevant. That's why fertilizer was invented. The much greater role of
fir bark in soilless mixes is as a substrate (physical support of roots)
and as a nurtrient _retaining_ amendment (high CEC or cation exchange
capacity). The amount of nutrient you would gain by composting would be on
the order of about 1 cent per plant, while the premature aging of the soil
would cost you the entire volume of soil, plus the increased risk of root
damage to your plant. Compost is great for the garden, compost tea is an
excellent (if somewhat risky) organic fertilizer, compost in container soil
mixes can be used but must be managed very carefully, and in my opinion is
better left out.


Brent in Northern California
Evergreen Gardenworks USDA Zone 8 Sunset Zone 14
mailto:bonsai@pacific.net
http://www.EvergreenGardenworks.com

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Craig Cowing

Iris Cohen wrote:

> << Brent at Evergreen Gardenworks wrote:
> > The major cause of soil collapse is loss of particle size due to _composting_
> of the organic portion. By using composted bark, you are using a material that
> already has one foot in the grave. >>
>
> I'm a little puzzled at this. Fatal soil compaction results from using organic
> matter that is too finely ground or too soft, like peat moss. The pine bark
> that is generally used in commercial bonsai soil, like Hollow Creek Farms, is
> only partially composted. This is to prevent the problem of bacteria in fresh
> bark using too much nitrogen.
> Also, if you repot on a regular basis, say every two or three years, the
> organic matter won't have turned to mush that fast. Another cause of premature
> soil collapse is using an inadequately fired clay component, like cat litter.
> That is why we keep emphasizing the need to use a high fired product like
> Turface.
> Iris,
> Central NY, Zone 5a, Sunset Zone 40
> "If we see light at the end of the tunnel, It's the light of the oncoming
> train."
> Robert Lowell (1917-1977)

I guess I'm as puzzled as Iris. I have begun to pot my deciduous trees in 2/3 -1/3
organic and inorganic soil, the organic being a combination of pine or fir bark,
not composted, and my own compost. The inorganic is mostly turface and some fine
gravel. It would seem that with regular repotting, as Iris points out, the soil
compaction will not be a problem. If a person were to wait too long, like 4-5
years or more, then I could see it being a problem.

And, of course, the climate is all-important. My soil mix would not work for
someone elsewhere. I've even changed my mix moving from Maine to here in southern
NY state, accounting for hotter summers.

Craig Cowing
NY
Zone 5b/6a sunset 37

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Roberto Alday Delgadillo

Dear Marty,



First of all, let me thank you for your time and interest. I guess you are right, it seems everybody has their own recipe about soils, but what it is important is exactly what you mention on your message –water requirements, drainage and root rot-. Theref
ore, I am going exactly what you recommend, keep using my soil and do some experimentation in order to get the best results possible for my trees.



Regards,

Roberto

----- Original Message -----
From: Marty
To: BONSAI@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM
Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 8:54 AM
Subject: Re: [IBC] composted pine bark


Roberto -
Talk to 100 people and you'll probably get 100 different soil mixes. It's
not the soil mix which is so important: it's how you water it, how you feed
it and how much light you give it. Garden soil usually has a high content
of organic material - which means that less water is required than with
inorganic mixes. It also means that, because there is less drainage, you
have to be carefull about root rot.
The important thing is to know is how to deal with the mix you have
available. This can best be accomplished by trial and error.
Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roberto Alday Delgadillo" <ivh@PRODIGY.NET.MX>
To: <BONSAI@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 9:44 AM
Subject: Re: [IBC] composted pine bark


> Could you talk a little more about this? As I told the forum on a previous
message, I don't know why, but here in Mexico almost all the people who
works with Bonsais, USE SOIL (at least 70, and of course, I am one of
them. Even more, on several books, authors recommend to use certain kind of
soils.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Roberto
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jim Lewis
> To: BONSAI@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM
> Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 7:51 AM
> Subject: Re: [IBC] composted pine bark
>
> Usually the soils we use have absolutely NO nutritional
> value. They are, in fact, soil-less. We supply nutrients in
> other ways.
>
> Jim Lewis - jklewis@nettally.com - Tallahassee, FL - Bonsaiests
> are like genealogists: We know our roots!
>
>
************************************************** **************************
****
> ++++Sponsored, in part, by Chris Cochrane++++
>
************************************************** **************************
****
> >>-->> The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/
<<--<<
> +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail BONSAI-REQUEST@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM
+++++
>
>
>
************************************************** **************************
****
> ++++Sponsored, in part, by Chris Cochrane++++
>
************************************************** **************************
****
> >>-->> The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ <<--<<
> +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail BONSAI-REQUEST@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM +++++

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Chris Cochrane++++
************************************************** ******************************
>>-->> The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ <<--<<
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail BONSAI-REQUEST@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM +++++

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Chris Cochrane++++
************************************************** ******************************
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+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail BONSAI-REQUEST@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM +++++

Roberto Alday Delgadillo

Hello Jim,



Thank you for your answer and your comments. And yes, I live in Mexico City, our climate is warm and rainy on summer. As a matter of fact, here we don’t have a large range of temperatures, mostly, differences are between rainy and dry seasons. So far, I h
ave been working with some of my trees for the last three years and with the same type of soil with no problem (or at least IMO). So, I will follow your advise and keep working and relaying on the people who has seemed to be successful so far.



Have a nice day,

Roberto

----- Original Message -----
From: Jim Lewis
To: BONSAI@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM
Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 9:33 AM
Subject: Re: [IBC] composted pine bark


Usually the soils we use have absolutely NO nutritional
value. They are, in fact, soil-less. We supply nutrients in
other ways.

=======================
Could you talk a little more about this? As I told the forum on a
previous message, I don't know why, but here in Mexico almost all
the people who works with Bonsais, USE SOIL (at least 70, and
of course, I am one of them. Even more, on several books, authors
recommend to use certain kind of soils.

==============================

As someone else said there are zillions of soil recipes; those
recommended in books are the ones the authors use. We all tend,
sometimes, to be a bit dogmatic about how we each grow our trees.

ONE factor people must take into account when deciding which soil
to use for any given tree is your climate. The only part of
Mexico I'm at all familiar with that that part within 150 miles
of the Mexico-US border, but I'm assuming you're from the Mexico
City area -- or at least south of the border area.

In any even, your summertime climate probably is quite warm --
even hot. In THAT case, there may well be something to be said
for a bonsai soil with more actual "soil" in it. Otherwise your
trees would dry out within minutes of watering.

If I were you and if the bonsai people I knew are capable, I'd go
with what the local people do.

Jim Lewis - jklewis@nettally.com - Tallahassee, FL - Only where
people have learned to appreciate and cherish the landscape and
its living cover will they treat it with the care and respect it
should have - Paul Bigelow Sears.

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Chris Cochrane++++
************************************************** ******************************
>>-->> The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ <<--<<
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail BONSAI-REQUEST@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM +++++

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Chris Cochrane++++
************************************************** ******************************
>>-->> The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ <<--<<
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail BONSAI-REQUEST@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM +++++

Evergreen Gardenworks

>Iris Cohen wrote:
>
> > << Brent at Evergreen Gardenworks wrote:
> > > The major cause of soil collapse is loss of particle size due to
> _composting_
> > of the organic portion. By using composted bark, you are using a
> material that
> > already has one foot in the grave. >>
> >
> > I'm a little puzzled at this. Fatal soil compaction results from using
> organic
> > matter that is too finely ground or too soft, like peat moss. The pine bark
> > that is generally used in commercial bonsai soil, like Hollow Creek
> Farms, is
> > only partially composted. This is to prevent the problem of bacteria in
> fresh
> > bark using too much nitrogen.

Iris

I have commented extensively in the past about the phenomenon of 'nitrogen
lockup'. Briefly, it is of no concern to us IF, we use stable organic
materials such as bark. The amount of nitrogen temporarily locked up by
micoorganisms in a good soilless mix is miniscule, and completely overcome
by any sensible fertilizer program.

> > Also, if you repot on a regular basis, say every two or three years, the
> > organic matter won't have turned to mush that fast.

True, but there are those of us who don't get to every plant every two
years, and there are sometimes problems with plants that are growing too
slowly, or in pots that are too large for the plants to adequately root
colonize the volume in a reasonable period of time.

> Another cause of premature
> > soil collapse is using an inadequately fired clay component, like cat
> litter.
> > That is why we keep emphasizing the need to use a high fired product like
> > Turface.

Absolutely correct.

> > Iris,

Craig added:


>I guess I'm as puzzled as Iris. I have begun to pot my deciduous trees in
>2/3 -1/3
>organic and inorganic soil, the organic being a combination of pine or fir
>bark,
>not composted, and my own compost. The inorganic is mostly turface and
>some fine
>gravel. It would seem that with regular repotting, as Iris points out,
>the soil
>compaction will not be a problem. If a person were to wait too long, like 4-5
>years or more, then I could see it being a problem.

Exactly, and that is what happens. In a slow growing environment, even
three years can be a problem.

I'm not arguing that you _can't_ use composted materials in your soil, of
course you can. But you do have to be aware that you are _starting_ with
materials that are already well on the road to particle degradation without
any good reason that I can see. Given that, why not use fresh bark that
will last longer?


Brent in Northern California
Evergreen Gardenworks USDA Zone 8 Sunset Zone 14
mailto:bonsai@pacific.net
http://www.EvergreenGardenworks.com

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Chris Cochrane++++
************************************************** ******************************
>>-->> The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ <<--<<
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail BONSAI-REQUEST@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM +++++