Systemics are not allowed on Elms! - bonsaiTALK Community

8-Feb-2008	#1
eeiko321 bonsaiTALK Master Chief Join Date: Jan-2008 Location: Sydney Country: AUstralia Posts: 1,650	Systemics are not allowed on Elms! it is said on one source ive read..... "Systemetic insecticides and fungicides cause defoliation in chinese elms. Do not use Systemics on elms" thats intresting, in this book it only said it for this ONE tree out of all the rest.. has anyone tried? and if it is the case, then if it grows fungus....what are u meant to use then?! like has anyone tried?....tell us your experience & share

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8-Feb-2008	#2
rockm bonsaiTALK ArchMaster Join Date: Oct-2003 Location: Fairfax, Va Country: USA USDA Zone: 7 AHS Heat Zone: ? Posts: 4,561	Chinese elms can react very badly to systemic insecticides. Some people have used them however. I have--once. Elm didn't appreciate it much. Haven't used them since. If you have a fungal problem, there are other ways to deal with it than a systemic--like topical fungicide sprays, repotting, watching the watering, etc. Using insecticides on bonsai can sometimes be an iffy proposition, depending on species and the type of insecticide. For instance, I found out the hard way that tridents can be sensitive to Pyrethrum-based bug spray. Had one trident that completely defoliated itself after being sprayed for aphids. When using insecticides with bonsai, best to use sparingly and only when absolutely needed. "Preventative" spraying or use of systemics when no real problem is present is not a wise way to go.

9-Feb-2008	#3
PatArizona Bonsai Master, in my mind Join Date: Feb-2005 Location: Back Home in Northern California Country: USA Posts: 1,635	"..."Preventative" spraying or use of systemics when no real problem is present is not a wise way to go..." Good one Rockm...this should be stated a bit more often... Pat __________________ BONSAI isn't about surviving in a storm, rather, how to dance in the rain. THE ONLY WAY: Always remember, and don't ever forget, that whatever you read here is not cast in concrete... the intent of any advice is to help. In no way should you feel that I’m saying that my way is the only way…heaven forbid! I've seen far too much of the "my way or the highway" attitude in bonsai as well as in other areas of life. Pat Patterson...Bonsai in the Greater Bay Area, Northern California

9-Feb-2008

eeiko321

bonsaiTALK Master Chief

Join Date: Jan-2008

Location: Sydney

Country: AUstralia

Posts: 1,650

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockm

Chinese elms can react very badly to systemic insecticides. Some people have used them however. I have--once. Elm didn't appreciate it much. Haven't used them since. If you have a fungal problem, there are other ways to deal with it than a systemic--like topical fungicide sprays, repotting, watching the watering, etc.

Using insecticides on bonsai can sometimes be an iffy proposition, depending on species and the type of insecticide. For instance, I found out the hard way that tridents can be sensitive to Pyrethrum-based bug spray. Had one trident that completely defoliated itself after being sprayed for aphids.

When using insecticides with bonsai, best to use sparingly and only when absolutely needed. "Preventative" spraying or use of systemics when no real problem is present is not a wise way to go.

i see, well i havent sprayed any insecticide yet, although i have one just in case but its sitting on the shelf.

topical fungal sprays?

i suppose the organic insecticides may not effect it since its not systemic.....

9-Feb-2008	#5
PatArizona Bonsai Master, in my mind Join Date: Feb-2005 Location: Back Home in Northern California Country: USA Posts: 1,635	G'day Eeiko... You quoted this from a previous post..."...When using insecticides with bonsai, best to use sparingly and only when absolutely needed...". Please read the posts. Pat __________________ BONSAI isn't about surviving in a storm, rather, how to dance in the rain. THE ONLY WAY: Always remember, and don't ever forget, that whatever you read here is not cast in concrete... the intent of any advice is to help. In no way should you feel that I’m saying that my way is the only way…heaven forbid! I've seen far too much of the "my way or the highway" attitude in bonsai as well as in other areas of life. Pat Patterson...Bonsai in the Greater Bay Area, Northern California

9-Feb-2008	#6
Vonsgardens Professional Amateur Join Date: Feb-2005 Location: Arkansas Country: USA USDA Zone: 7 AHS Heat Zone: Hot Posts: 2,337	Depends on the systematic and the dosing. Many of the knock em dead systematics are hard on lots of trees. We use systematics on a regular basis on potted trees including Ulmus P., winged elms, slippery elms and american elms. We use about a 90 day cycle that will start in March. We use Disyston for the conifers- controls a vast number of spring borers, suckers and shoot tip moths and we are using Merit spray on the others. Merit does not require an applicators license in most states, has no holdover time and is quite effective for dealing with Japanese beetles and other root chewing grubs. Talk to your Count Agricultural Extension agent in the US, other where, sorry don't know. We haven't needed to use a systemic fungicide, we use lime sulphur, captan or copper based products topically as required. John __________________ "Wiring is simple; However, it is not easy to do it right" Boon

9-Feb-2008	#7
rockm bonsaiTALK ArchMaster Join Date: Oct-2003 Location: Fairfax, Va Country: USA USDA Zone: 7 AHS Heat Zone: ? Posts: 4,561	"i suppose the organic insecticides may not effect it since its not systemic....." This is definitely not true. "Organic" doesn't translate to "safe" for anything. Nicotine is an "organic" compound that is used as an insecticide. Used on the wrong tree or in the wrong strength it will kill the subject plant. Additionally, pyrethrin is an "organic" insecticide developed from Chrysanthemum plants that is supposed to be safer than organophosphate insecticides. As I've mentioned, one of my tridents had an extremely bad reaction to a pyrethrin-based spray. A day after I sprayed for aphids, the tree started dropping its leaves. It lost all of its leaves in a week. That is an indication of a pretty strong reaction to the chemical in the spray. There are no foolproof, safe insecticides or fungicides or herbicides. They are all designed to kill something. Keeping that in mind with anything you spray is advisable. "Organic' does not mean "harmless."

9-Feb-2008	#8
Repotter Hec DeBrabant Join Date: Nov-2004 Location: Southern Michigan Country: USA USDA Zone: 5 AHS Heat Zone: ? Posts: 977	Amen rockm,.......We use a systemic called Marathon and another one by Bonide at the greenhouse. I use them only on trees that need help and in doses less than recommended by the manufacturer. I use it on Ch. Elms as well as a lot of tropicals and semi tropicals and have never had an ill effect. I believe that the dose has a lot to do with it. Hector __________________ http://www.tellys.com http://www.Fourseasonsbonsai.com The original Four Seasons Bonsai Club of Michigan. Our guest master in August is Pedro Morales. Tellys Greenhouse, 3301 John R road, Troy Mi. 48083 Four Seasons Bonsai Club meetings monthly. Troy, Michigan "Anything is possible when you don't know what you are doing"................someone famous I think.