Q About "tree Digging Law"

robingfx

Hi everybody,

I went up to Mount Pinos here in Southern California a few weeks ago to join a huge Mars gazing party. I have just recently started getting interested in bonsai trees, so while driving up there I could see MANY potential trees along the road.

Now I want to go back up there to dig up some trees, but I realize, after reading on bonsaitalk.com, that it is illegal. I have read through a few of the threads here but can’t seem to find a conclusive answer to what the law says. I understand that you have to ask for permission if you want to dig up a tree on someone’s property, but what about land that is owned by the government? Like Mount Pinos, who the heck owns that? Where do I find out who owns a piece of land?

I also live fairly close to the Mohave Desert where there is plenty of material to collect. But what is the chance that the government would give ME permission to go dig up trees there?

Final question, does anyone know if groups of people go tree hunting together? I think it would be fun to drive out from Los Angeles to collect trees together (with permission of course).

Thanks,
Robin

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TreeBay

You don't want to get caught digging trees on federal lands without specific permission. As was pointed out earlier, that's a felony. Some spots are protected by other conservation laws, so you want to be really careful. If it's a state or national park, there is probably some local ranger office where you could ask to get more information. I have heard of folks getting permits to take a number of trees on federal property of a specific type below a certain size.

As to your other question, towards the bottom of this forum is post by bonsaial1 about his trip collecting California Juniper with Harry Hirao. Harry has an arrangement with some ranchers in the Mojave area that allow the group access to specific areas. You need to be a member of Kofu Bonsai Kai to go on the annual dig, but many join from out of the area, just for that purpose.

Regards,

Matt

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robingfx

Thanks you for your reply. I am glad that I researched a little before I just went up to Mount Pinos to dig.

Robin

Jay

Robingfx, just some food for thought. If you were to remove this or that tree from Gov't land. Would it be there for me to see afterwoods. Did you enjoy if? Should't others?

On a famous hiking trail near here, there is one beautiful nearly perfect (yes, Andy, I think this comes close to a possible from the wild to a pot Bonsai) Tree. It is beautiful. I walk that trail once or twice a year. I see the tree and stop for sometimes 20 -30 minutes to look at it. If it were removed I would never be able to see it again, nor would anyone else passing by. Do I want it....YES.... would I go and get it ...NO... it ain't mine to take. Sure I could say I would give it the best of care, and that I would not let it die (or try not) but.......

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robingfx

Jay,

Thanks for your reply.

I understand your point and I agree to a certain degree that perfect trees should be left alone for everybody to enjoy. I wouldn’t want to walk a trail and find holes everywhere sticking out like a sore thumb, and I wouldn’t want to know that the prettiest trees along that trail had been plucked by selfish people for their own pleasure.

But what if you walked out in the woods or the desert where nobody rarely ever walks? You won’t deprive anyone from the beauty if you dig a tree up there. There are billions of trees so there is no risk that you would eradicate a species or make any significant impact (unless everybody in this planet suddenly started to become serious bonsaiists).

In your reply to me you gave an example of a “nearly perfect” tree. I can understand why that should be left alone. But if I found a less perfect tree, why couldn’t I take that one? I am more interested in young trees that I can train into a bonsai.

I understand that there are laws against stealing and digging up trees without permission is immoral. So for that reason I wouldn’t dig up a tree. Believe me, I wouldn’t break the law to get a tree; I am not that serious about bonsaiing. But the arguments I read here in some of the threads don’t persuade me. You gave me an extreme example which I agree with, but there are so many more trees in the world.

Take care,
Robin

FredL

Robin, I believe that it is quite possible to get permission to collect on National Forest land, of which there is alot in your area. I think they sell permits, just like they do for logging. Check with the District or Forest Headquarters. You won't be doing anything unusual; people do that and also get permission to collect firewood all the time. I don't know about other federal lands but I imagine it's the same.

Fred

Jay

Robin, you make some good points. May I mention that the 'nearly perfect tree' I am talking about is through my eyes. Someone else might see a different tree as the one to look at. If we all feel that this or that tree isn't that important which one will be left?

May I suggest you visit the website of Andy Smith of SD. He is an extremely well known collector of trees from the wild. Many large conventions use his material for their headliners demo trees.
http://www.goldenarrowbonsai.com/catalog1.htm
The above link is not his home page but one that gives some excellent thoughts. I note some of his remarks below:
"On a good collecting site about one plant out of one hundred is actually transplantable. On many sites the ratio is one out of a thousand or less. This translates to about one tree collected for every six or seven acres of ground covered. So the actual impact on the landscape is virtually nil."

You can get out of this that its OK, with permission, to take trees. I get that there are very few trees that you should be thinking of taking. Remember you have to remove from the possibile candidates those that are not likely to live.

Walter Pall has shown us some trees that make our jaws drop. He collected these trees in the mountains. I'm sure he will tell you that there are some that can not and should not be collected.

My last thought is that the more special a tree looks in the wild does not change it chances for survival. If it is a long shot to live... do not collect it!
Jay

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A Bonsai student living with his trees at N 44.37 W 77.49...
Think before you act... then think again... no good comes from rushing

robingfx

FredL: Thank you a lot for your reply. My little malsai just died, my seeds that I collected from trees don’t grow, the law prohibits me from picking trees from the wild, and purchasing a tree is way too expensive...so your reply made me feel a little better. I will definitely look into getting a permit when I want to collect something from the parks around here.

Jay: Thank you for that URL. It seems to be an interesting site to learn more about what we’re discussing. As I said earlier in this thread, I am just starting bonsaiing, so this is all good information for me. I am also glad you didn’t get upset,...because I’ve seen people get banned from this site when talking about their kleptomania

Thanks,
Robin

Carl_Bergstrom

Just a comment:

I don't know quite what scale you're considering, but it is at best pointless and a worst downright unethical to go collecting established trees without the skills and know-how to both collect them properly and to care for them afterwards. Neither is trivial!!!! You can't just dig a 50 year conifer out of the ground, plunk it down into a flower pot, and expect it to survive.

Much better to start with smaller material - sapling a few years old, for example - and work your way up slowly from there. When you do go to collect more sizable material, go with someone who is already experienced at doing so.

Best regards,
Carl

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