How to collect large trees 10'-15'+ tall

sweetgum_master

Hi all,
I was wanting to know what other people do from start to finish to dig up large trees as I'm not completely sure how to do so. I read In one of my newest books and it says that you forst dig a trench about 2ft away frm the trunk any roots that are in the way should be cut as well as the tap root after that fill the trench with your prefered material for inducing fibrose roots then leave it untill the next spring. Next spring dig a trench at least 2-3 feet away from the trunk the width of a spade across atlest 1ft deep again cut the roots you find then widen the trench gradually until you are about 12-15in away from the trunk base continue to cut unneeded roots that you encounter to make lifting easier then undercut the tree and lift out.\

Is this a good method for collecting trees

Note this is actually for hedges and not large trees but isn't much difference

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Asus101

Another way you could do is trench one half the way round, refill with sand, wait a year, do the other side, and wait another year, finally in the third year cut the tap and lift from the ground. the sand i believe allows more fibrous roots to form.

_gonzo_

Now we’re talking!

After spending years in Florida as an experienced nurserymen replacing any number of hedges, shrubs, and trees and then having all this free material to hack into bonsai as I pleased, I got an idea. I moved to Maine. Suddenly, I was reduced to being an inept buffoon making horrendous mistake after mistake trying to be too…er…abrupt in applying the same techniques. Not good! Killing plants is definitely not working for me.

I did manage to realize that this abruptness was the problem and have since had some success. After reading this thread however, it seems I have merely hit the tip of the iceberg.

My question now still relates to my experience with tropicals. I have learned over the years that I was able to keep almost anything alive by understanding a proportionate correlation between root and foliage removal. Since this has not been mentioned here, I thought I would ask for opinions about how much of a role this plays with northern plants.

So, how much of a role does this play with northern plants?

Cheers!

_gonzo_

rockm

The best way to collect a large tree is to practice on smaller ones. Know what you're doing before you dig a big one.

Collecting wild trees is absolutely NOTHING like it appears in books. Nice neat roots are not what you will encounter on wild trees. Hedges and wild trees will have wildly different root masses. They are not the same. Hedges will have shallower more sensible root masses than wild grown trees.

You will probably have no need of a big shovel. Tools required for digging trees in the Eastern and Southern US include hand trowels, a short sharp camping shovel root hook, brush saw, and a long iron prybar.

Wild trees have uneven roots, roots that dive to China, roots that shoot off under rocks, entangled with other tree roots, etc. There is no way to predict what you will run into. The larger the tree, the more problems you will encounter.

If you're going to dig a tree over a period of years, trenching can work, but it can also fool you. That trench may not cross the plants most substantial rootage, which might make a strong downward, leftward, or rightward turn and you will miss them, basically wasting a year's work.

Go ahead and trench one side of the tree if you want, but more imporantly, also examine the tree's roots as they emerge from the trunk. Use a hand trowel to dig ALONG primary roots from the trunk to find where they branch. Once you have found several clumps of feeder roots, sever the main root eight or so inches beyond those feeders. Backfill will soil, or wrap the end of the severed root with long fibered sphagnum moss and then back fill with bonsai soil. Do this repeatedly on as many large roots you can find.

Forget about severing the tap root until you are ready to pull the tree up to take it home. Tap roots are generally not critical to a tree's survival. They serve primarily as support. Severing them is one of the most arduous things in collecting, though, especially on deciduous trees and especially oaks.

Generally, at "take home time" you undercut the tree on all sides making sure there are no roots still attached. This sound easy, but it's not, especially with larger trees.

After undercutting, roughly trunk chop the tree to within a foot of its final planned bonsai height (no lower). Use the remaining stump as a lever to push the tree over to see underneath, or better yet use that six foot iron pry bar (makes this part MUCH easier). Lifting one side of the root mass is a hard thing to do if you don't have help, as the rootball on a large tree can easily weigh 300 lbs. If you don't have help, push the tree gradually, propping it up with rocks or other support as you go--or use that pry bar (you should probably invest in one ).

Once you have the root mass lifted enough to put your hands and arms underneath it, feel around for more attached roots. You will probably feel a VERY large root (or if you're unlucky, SEVERAL large tap roots). Get your short brush saw out (I buy a new sharp one for every collecting trip--you will find out why). Manuever under the root ball and saw for all you're worth. This can take a very long time and alot of strength, depending on the tree species (dense wooded trees, like oak, have very tough roots). I bring along relatives to help and this can be merciful. It took me, my brother and father two hours of tag team sawing to get through the roots of one 60 year old cedar elm once.

Hopefully neither you, nor the saw, will wear out before the roots are sawed more than halfway through.

Once halfway, you can use the stump as a lever (or better yet that iron pry bar ) to break the rest. Make sure you have gotten all the roots though, as this procedure can also break the stump, or your back if the tree still has attachments.

You really don't have to get alot of soil with the roots--if it's not a conifer. In fact, I usually shake off as much forest soil as I can--I like to start collected deciduous trees bareroot in bonsai soil. Make sure your vehicle is nearby. Dragging 60 lbs of tree and soil through the woods after spending four hours digging and sawing is not fun.

Get the collected tree into a largish container filled with bonsai soil ASAP in the place you plan on keeping the tree for the next two years. Make all these preparations BEFORE you dig the tree.--Don't make the mistake of planting it back in the ground. You just spent hours and a bucket of blood sweat and tears getting it OUT of the ground.

Now ask about aftercare....

sweetgum_master

What does a brush saw look like Also I think that you explained how to collect large trees very well rockm.

Thanks

rockm

A bow saw with very rough teeth, usually seen in camping stores. Also, a simple short (the foot long one, not the two foot long ones) carpenter's cross-cut saw will work, but it isn't as fast.

rockm

"was able to keep almost anything alive by understanding a proportionate correlation between root and foliage removal."

Not really the case with collected deciduous material. There is a bit of a correlation, but this theory is a bit overblown, IMO. Drastic reduction is drastic reduction. I've found that alot of deciduous native trees are alot tougher than the kid glove treatment that some books advise. Any species of elm being extremely resilient to just about any collecting abuse. I've reduced elms 95 % all at once, dug them up and shipped them across the country airmail and they've lived. Similar with Bald Cypress. Carolina hornbeam can be trunked chopped of most of its top growth and have 97 percent of its roots removed and will survive (although you have to know which roots to keep).

Sometimes leaving more top growth than bottom growth can speed recovery, as that top growth is the engine that drives root development.

Timing is the most important aspect of collecting. Do it as the wrong time with the wrong species and you're sunk. Some species can be pretty finicky about when you can collect them. Sweetgum will not survive collection once it has pushed new growth in the Spring. Collect juuust before bud break and they tend to do fine. Fall is a bad time to do much of anything reliably...

_gonzo_

Rockm,

Your point is well taken about many roots of wild tress providing anchorage rather than food. With sub/tropicals my success rate was based entirely on this notion.
The “trenching” described in the other posts does sound sensible as a head start approach. The larger roots are normally culled anyway in favor of the finer fibrous “hair” roots that aid in reducing leaf size and finer twigs so why not go ahead and get the jump before lifting? Lacking some 'northern' confidence, it at least, sound safe.

With sub/tropicals I rarely (if ever) considered this since I knew existing hair roots could usually sustain a plant provided an appropriate amount of unwanted foliage had also been removed producing the same desired win, win situation. I also knew the eventual goal of this form of root restriction was to promote such roots anyway while leaving only the large surface ones for any desired aesthetics.

A general rule for sub/tropicals for me was to be to take about the same amount of foliage as I did roots.

What is still unclear to me now however, is whether or not this normally holds true for northern species under the added hardship of season changes sicne it has not really worked out for me so far.
Cheers!

_gonzo_

rockm

"The larger roots are normally culled anyway in favor of the finer fibrous “hair” roots that aid in reducing leaf size and finer twigs so why not go ahead and get the jump before lifting?"

Aside from the fact that trenching rarely hits most (or any) of the plant's major roots, in some instances with some species, it's unnecessary and sometimes even detrimental to do so. For example, a three inch diameter, 10 foot carolina hornbeam growing in understory conditions--I have just sawed trees like this tree out of the ground completely in one sitting--if I could locate a few feeders within eight inches of the trunk--which isn't hard to do with such a smaller young tree.

Trenching larger roots (if you hit any) can actually slow the process for some trees, as it not only removes reserves, it also forces it to produce new roots without those reserves. I've found from doing this that the tree may actually die if left for another year, as it gets outcompeted by nearby trees with no handicap in the root department. In springtime, such trees can be slower to produce foliage and get a jump start on their competition. Which leads to a cascade of decline.

I've found that by removing the plant completely bareroot (with some fine feeder roots and trunk chop all at the same time) and putting it in a container in sheltered conditions more root growth and top growth can be achieved than by leaving it alone in the woods. Soil is critical to this, coarser, more open soil devoid of all field soil helps considerably in this.

Aftercare is critical, perhaps even more critical, than collection techinique itself. You have to learn the knack of what soil is best, what container will work (too large and you get root rot), how to water, how to overwinter and how to leave well enough alone. Watering a recently collected tree is not the same as watering a bonsai. Too much water and care can retard root development. Too little attention can kill off roots too, as can moving the tree around. You also have to avoid the temptation to do anything to the tree designwise for at least two years.