And Now, A Word On Nebari

ripsgreentree

Al and I should really be very close, we have many simular interests especially in bonsai. I want to start trees for bonsai and he likes to finish them. You would think that we could find some common ground. I give Al all the credit in the world when it comes to working with branch structure and trunk line, art and form. He just knows more than I on these subjects. You would think that he could give credit where it is due for some of the things that I can do. This discussion is on nebari and while Al can recognise good nebari I can create it in the plants that I grow.

Stephentoddpope Your azalias roots will inarch together to hopefully create good or interesting nebari. Follow the techniques of layering soil and proper feeding. At the proper time in spring when your tree wants to form its flower buds. Remove all of the buds to keep your tree from flowering, unpot and prune out the roots that you don't want. Re pot in properly layered soil and when your tree starts to grow you can start feeding again.
The reason that you remove all buds is to keep your azalia from flowering this is because this plant will expend all of its energy in creating flowers and leave nothing for the recovery from your work. When you remove the buds you redirect this energy to leaf production.
Junipers will generally have a very fibrous root structure. You can incourage better root structure by planting it into a growing box. It will also preform better in layered soil.

Layered soil and good drainage is a whole new/old thread that can be discused in the Techniques forum.

Mfp1028 Al is much politer in person than he is on the internet. We still have our discussions but they don't get out of hand until we get to the internet.......go figure! Here I am in person.

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ripsgreentree

It requires an open hand to give and to recieve.

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Jay

Al and Rip.... For the most part your going back and forth with slightly (OK maybe not so slightly) different views is informative and educational. But is it possible for some of the personal stuff to go on through private messages?

I have learned much from your disagreements! If the answer was not part of your discussion, it at least opened my eyes to looking up the answer somewhere. But sometimes..... sometimes you two seem to want to sit down with a drink and go at it verbally!

I know it is more work to seperate out the personal from the informative... two entries one to the list and one private is twice the work, but, really is it possible?

The two of you are responsible for a majority of the posts.... and many of them contain negative statements.

Just my .02 cents

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A Bonsai student living with his trees at N 44.37 W 77.49...
Think before you act... then think again... no good comes from rushing

ripsgreentree

Jay this is good advice I will be glad to take it.

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ripsgreentree

It requires an open hand to give and to recieve.

bnsaijim

That trident happens to be one of my favorite trees, for a number of reasons. Perhaps the roots are unrealistic. Then again maybe they aren't. There is a wonderful technical accomplishemtn here.

Part of bonsai for me is fantasy driven... the images of truly ancient gnarled trees in a forest primordial are what attract me. Imagine this trident being some ancient tree in the forest, climb among the roots... My favorite viewpoint of my trees is with my head underneath the branch structure looking up... I love watching Disney movies for that reason- nobody draws an old tree like those artists...

There aren't many of these trees left- the ones that are 600, 700 years old... sprawling branches, roots that DO spread for yards, bonded together in places. These trees that break all the rules...

I think the definition of "illusion of age" may be in a flux. People think that the 50 year old oak that the developers missed is "old"...

Andy is certainly right in that canopies need balance. Yes, this is an extreme case... Not really realistic, even with respect to the exaggerations necessary to achieve the illusions of size, age, balance...

If one were to consider the various art movements, how many embrace the subject exactly as it appears? One- "Realism". The others distort reality as they see fit, to make representations of their inner workings. Some abandon recognizable subject matter completely, relying solely on the viewers "gut" to deliver the message.

At the risk of reviving the inane endless art vs. craft argument, as Matt pointed out to me in another thread, the kanji define bonsai as "plant" (not even limitted to trees) in a "container"... Nothing denoting "realism"... I think we all agree that there is an element of art in everyone's bonsai... So see each work as you would a painting or sculpture...

There may be an artistic statement that accounts for the extreme exaggeration. I'd have to go digging in my library to see if the artist creating this work alluded to any messages he wished to impart. Maybe he was going for a representation of the common bond the whole world share. Who knows...

Extremism does not have to be your cup of tea. Perhaps your own inventory of natural imagery simply does not allow you to interpret certain works as "real trees". Maybe you missed the elementary school trip to the modern art museum so never learned simple art apprectiation...

I would contend that one might do a great disservice to one's self and work by not at least seeking to understand what the message is. Even as hobbyists we should seek to push our own boundaries...

Peace,

Jim
TX

stevehtx

Well said Jim. I believe bonsai encompasses the extreme view of the art as well as the realistic view. Some people focus on an aspect of the tree, as seems to be the case in the maple above with the massive base, and work to bring out that aspect technicaly and artistically as far as they can. I've seen MANY examples of this kind of nebari in pictures of trees from Japan. I believe that they are quite highly prized there as a certain type of representation of a tree. I've also seen many examples of extreme deadwood in trees that do not match reality and these are highly considered as works of art. I believe Picasso's cubism, out there as it is, is still considered great art despite the fact his subjects aren't rendered in photographic and realistic detail.

Trees emulating nature accurately and an artist's extreme view of a tree in nature can both be considered art and artistic. I think we should seek to understand the reasoning behind other artist's actions and techniques before judging and, in some cases, demeaning the artistic efforts of others. I believe that fostering understanding between bonsai artists of different persuasions might be more constructive.

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Steve Delaune
Houston, Texas

Carl_Bergstrom

Jim and Steve,

I'm sorry if you feel that I am "demeaning the artistic efforts of others." While this style does not work for me personally, that was not my intent.

Let's look at what I wrote in my initial remarks on the subject:



I think it's pretty clear from this that I was talking about my personal opinions and extending my personal guesses regarding the popularity of this style. I
hope you know me well enough from reading my posts to know that I wouldn't presume to be the sole arbiter of any tree's artistic value.

In writing that post, I put forth a particular hypothesis about why people like these trees, one that I believed fully at time I typed it: that the popularity of this style arose largely because people "failed to distinguish between the elements of the artistic composition that made that tree great, and the necessary accidents of age that go along with it." One of the benefits that came out of this thread was that other alternative explanations were offered, several of them probably more plausible than my own (e.g. Andy's "artistic principles, Jim's old-tree fantasy imagery). I learned a lot from this, and while I'm unlikely to start stying my own trees along these lines, you've given me the keys to a better appreciation of such material when I do see it at shows or in magazines and such.

So I don't know if you want an apology from me, or what. I do think that the best discussions - such as this one - often come when someone takes a stand and others address or attack or support it, as the case may be.

Best regards,
Carl / OMC

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In love with trees

stevehtx

OMC,

I can't speak for Jim but I did not write this response using your name or with you specifically in mind. I intentionally wrote it so as not to, hopefully, offend anyone. In writing this response, I am only trying to inject some sense of appreciation for all bonsai artists and their work rather than the perpetuation of divisiveness and antagonism that I have found being expressed (often as opinions) during the time I have been reading these threads.

Everyone has their opinion and that is protected here in the US. But given that we study an art that focuses on beauty, patience, sensitivity, and loving care of the trees we own, is it not possible that we could extend that out into our lives and treat each other the same way? Couldn't opinions be expressed in a more understanding fashion? If we can't stop for a second and look at the other guy's side of the argument before we jump, if we can't seek to understand the thought processes and the artistic reasoning behind another person's attempts before we condemn, then we have not learned anything from bonsai but how to raise trees in pots and have lost the greatest benefit which is the change to ourselves for the better. If we only forced trees to do what we want rather than understand where the tree is coming from, how long would we have trees that survived? How hard is it to extend this kind of understanding to others?

As for the large nebari that have been shown above, I believe they are the result of educated individuals seeking to develop and evolve a specific look for a tree from their vantage point and view of the world. They don't look like most normal trees in nature (though there are examples) or anything most people would create at home. But that's okay. No one else has to create this kind of tree if they don't want to. They only have to create those trees that match their character and desire. But because a specific kind of artistic attempt does not match a person's own view of the world, should not offer it up for ridicule or dismissive criticism (in this thread, this forum, or elsewhere). A more proper expression of opinion might be "I really don't particularly like this style of (painting, sculpture, tree, culture, etc., etc.) but neither do I really understand it. Is there anyone who could explain this to me so I can make an informed comment?"

I don't require an apology since, as I said, I was not writing this response with you specifically in mind.

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Steve Delaune
Houston, Texas

Carl_Bergstrom

For better or for worse, discussions here tend to take off when people state or even overstate opinions. They tend to fade and die when people lay out both the yin and the yang of the matter in the very first post. As a Westerner, I learn a great deal by taking a side and then trying to intellegently defend it - with an open mind.

I see others take this approach here as well. I don't see the harm in it - and I don't think it's fair to characterize these people as blinding condemning nor as unwilling to learn, just because their mode of exposition does not follow the procedure that you seem to be advocating.
To put it another way, the dialectic process works for many of us. Sometimes one needs to clearly lay out the thesis and the antithesis before coming to see the synthesis. Maybe this isn't admirable, but it's how we, brought up in this particular time and place, have learned to think and learned to learn.



If this was not my tone, it was certainly my intent. And it certainly was the outcome of the whole exchange. Almost every word I post to this forum should be taken both as somewhat tongue-in-cheek and as subject to abrupt reversal if people can convince me I'm wrong. Such is the case with the phrase "oil-slick" roots.

While I respect the opinions that you've posted to this forum a great deal, I must say that your current remarks on the "Proper Way to express opinions" come off as rather patronizing. Perhaps this was not your intent. Or perhaps I and/or others here deserve it. Whatever the case may be, I hope that we can earn your respect so that we can move forward in what this place can be at its best - a wonderful opportunity to learn about bonsai outside of the traditional channels that we use for that purpose.

Best regards,
Carl

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stevehtx

On the other hand, to give credit, I have read many of the threads from others who were kind, supportive, understanding and genuinely helpful to those writing in, especially beginners. Thanks for that.

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Steve Delaune
Houston, Texas