Help: Made a mistake with Neem and Insecticide!

thoth037

OK, so I made a mistake that is having some significant consequences. I have some long-term problems with these small flying gnat-like incest around the roots of my root-over-rock Chinese Elm, and some of my maples. I also started noticed aphids on my nearby herb garden, and got concerned they would spread.

I decided to take preventative action on my bonsai and take care of anything that existed there already. I used pure neem oil in a hose sprayer to spray down every surface of my Japanese maples, chinense elm, and cyprus. And then, I used something I used for all my larger trees, Bayer Tree and Shrub Insect Control liquid. This I mixed in my watering can and saturated the pots to get a systemic control of the bugs.

Now, I am not sure if it was the neem or the Bayer, but the next day, my Aka Shigatatsu Sawa Maple, and my Trident Maple immediately started to droop. Next thing I know, the Sawa (my prized piece) was severely drooped. All the leaves were intact and APPEARED healthy, but were all at severe 90 degree angles down. The same for my small trident. However, the trident had more immediate effects, and then most of the leaves turned yellow>brown>and now have shriveled off. My large Sawa's leaves have started to curl. I am terrified that I might have poisoned or damaged them beyond repair. I soaked the small trident base in water to try to dilute any effects, and lightly hosed the leaves of both as much as possible.

I was at the Monastery in Conyers, GA (they have the famous bonsai collection there) this weekend, without the plants, and spoke to one of the caretakers there. He said that yes, I did make a mistake, that the neem is likely suffocating the leaves, and that I need to try to remove it as much as possible. I asked about leaf clipping to help the trees sprout new, healthy leaves, he said that could help. Now I have two problems: one, what about the neem that is absorbed in the soil, is there a possibility it is suffocating the roots? What about the Bayer, with something like that, is it all gone and done with and I've lost them?

I really would appreciate anyone's help on this before it gets worse!

-Will

Advertisement

Rock Chester

Dont know. All I know is that anytime Ive had problems(usually Missed watering) and Elms and maples go to the point of droop, if they are instantly defoiliated totally --they come back fine. If you leave them on they seem to suck the life out of the tree and it dies.

My advice--strip off leaves, flush and flush soil ,get back out on bench full sun, and put away the hose end sprayer.

good luck

__________________
All flash website,easyto update,hosting,domain bundle

Of interest to bonsai lovers

thoth037

Well, the maples have had a hard time in the intense sun here in North Alabama, so I've kept them on the front porch when the sun stays out longer (previously they were on the back patio, full sun). I was also concerned that this might be an over-watering problem? I will upload pictures tonite, but until then, the Sawa maple's leaves are nicely colored, but are starting to curl at the edges, and get a little crisp. ALL the leaves are wilted (or actually the stems are). The trident I clip off all the yellow/brown leaves this morning, the rest are actually looking ok.

PatArizona

G'day Will...

Sorry to hear about your invasion by the nasties...

Please be aware Will, that what I have to say is MY OPINION...based on my many years of experience. It's what works for me. It might work for you. Or not.

You might have overwatered...Maybe not. Remember that you should water each bonsai when it NEEDS WATERING. Further, the basis for a good watering program is a fast draining soil.

If you need more info on watering or bonsai soil mixes, let us know.

So...the bugs.

Always remember, and don’t ever forget, that indiscriminate use of insecticides…or any “cide” of any description…is a very, very bad thing. Any time that you use an insecticide, you are likely to nail some beneficial insects and predator insects in addition to any harmful critters you might get.

So, what to do, you ask…

Well, you should conclusively identify the critter you are after…whatever it takes, identify the culprit. Then, and only then, treat your plants, soil, etc., for that specific pest. If necessary, take samples of the pest, damaged plant, infested soil, etc., to a qualified local nurseryman, and/or your local Agriculture Extension Agent (or whatever your government agency happens to be) to get help identifying your pest.

Two points about selecting the "cide" to use: (1) NEVER use a "cide" that is not indicated, on the label, for the plant you are treating; and (2) NEVER use a "cide" that is not indicated, on the label, for the pest you are trying to nail.

Once you have accomplished identification, you should start with the least toxic treatment (spray with clear water, whatever) recommended for your particular problem. If the “least toxic” doesn’t work, move on to the next “least toxic”, etc. And, always read the label! Not only read it, but follow the directions!

Keep in mind that insecticides should never be used in any way that is not specified on the label. If you are not following label directions…here in the USA anyway…you are breaking the law. Also, there may very well be a health risk if you disregard the label instructions.

Finally, what I have suggested (that’s suggested as in “suggested”) above, is what has worked for me, in Southern Arizona for almost 13 years, and in Northern California before that…and now, back home in Northern California.

I know that I’m being redundant, but it works for me.

Pat

__________________
BONSAI isn't about surviving in a storm, rather, how to dance in the rain.
THE ONLY WAY: Always remember, and don't ever forget, that whatever you read here is not cast in concrete... the intent of any advice is to help. In no way should you feel that I’m saying that my way is the only way…heaven forbid! I've seen far too much of the "my way or the highway" attitude in bonsai as well as in other areas of life.

thoth037

Thanks for the advice. I took some pictures of the trees yesterday, but my computer was acting up and I wasn't able to upload them; I will try again today.

After taking a closer look at the leaves of the Sawa< i've noticed that the majority of the leaves are fine themselves, it seems the stems are slightly bent down, dropping the entire leaf. However, there are several leaves that have begun to curl. Also, the small seed pods have blackened/brown tips now.

As far as the Trident, I noticed that some of the leaves developed some black spots before they turned yellow and brown. I've left the trees under a large cherry tree (for dappled sunlight/shade) and am hoping the soil will dry up a bit. Then I will clip their leaves to start new growth. I also am building an awning of sorts weith 50% shade cloth.

Another question I have is, is this a good time to repot? I knowtraditionally late spring is not the ideal time, but considering the circumstances, i was thinking of trying a new soil compositon turface, granite grit, and pine bark, and hope that will allieviate any problems in the soil.

subnet_rx

The gnats were probably fungus gnats. From what I've read, they do no harm, and most likely means you are watering too often. I have one indoor tree that has them constantly because the soil is too organic and it takes it 4-5 days to dry out. The tree grows profusely though, and I've never seen them harm it. I just put a fly trap next to the tree and it keeps the numbers really cut down to maybe 2 or 3 around my tree.

thoth037

I've uploaded some pictures (I apologize for the blur, it was windy!) I have both the Trident and the Aka Shigatatsu Sawa. The Trident was the one that was effected the quickest, and the Sawa is getting more and more leaves curling and crisp.

I'm afraid of clipping the leaves all off if it is not healthy, and it wouldn't have enough energy to force out new buds. But if I leave them on, it won't have the chance to make new leaves! Please help!

Attached Images

	20080505-_MG_3855.jpg (35.5 KB, 15 views)
	20080505-_MG_3856.jpg (41.9 KB, 17 views)
	20080505-_MG_3857.jpg (61.7 KB, 18 views)
	20080505-_MG_3858.jpg (56.2 KB, 12 views)
	20080505-_MG_3859.jpg (39.4 KB, 14 views)
	20080505-_MG_3860.jpg (61.4 KB, 11 views)