Once you have your snobsai (Let's say you won the raffled demo by a major Japanese Master at a regional convention, and assume it survived.), When does it become your tree, and not that of the Master?

Even though you give credit for the initial styling, at some point, the Master will not recognize it as his. Thus, it has become yours.

Or has it?

In the post about the Philadelphia Flower Show , look at photo #19412 in post number 7.

Compare it to this work (Photo below) in process at the 2003 MidAtlantic, or to these better photos at 2003 MidAtlantic Show

No slur is intended on the person displaying the tree in Philly. Its provenance was well-known. However, I do feel that this may help clarify my question.

And, yes, I have another of the three trees Kobayashi did simultaneously.

Second and third photos are of "my" tree. As received by me, and yesterday.

Kobayashi advised the "tilt" Should it be greater?

Attached Images

	Kobayashi on stage.jpg (57.2 KB, 105 views)
	As received s.jpg (48.8 KB, 89 views)
	K Cascade B s.jpg (56.8 KB, 85 views)

A bonsai whether is was created by Ben Oki, or Ralph Cramden, becomes my bonsai the moment it comes into my possesion.
As part of the tree's history, and the story that I will tell, the artists in the tree's lineage will always be credited by me.

I have to agree with Ralph. Once a tree is legally in your possession, it is yours.

Once it is yours, it is your responsibility to care, water, pot, fertilize, etc. You can take credit for keeping it alive, maintaining, or restyling the tree. You may take the blame for broken branches, broken pots, dead specimens and unmaintained styling. It is your tree and your decisions will determine development or death.

Your integrity should guide you as to the telling of the history of the tree. Though you may give credit to another for past development of a tree, it may also be said that if the tree has not been maintained well, that you must take the blame. (The past "master" may not appreciate his name being used in conjunction with a badly restyled or diseased tree.)

-Candy

if you mean "becomes yours" literally, then of course if becomes yours the second you take win it or buy it. I have assumed, however, that you mean more than that. i take your question to mean when can you take credit for it.

it occurs to me that some of us (you guys, not me) do some really good work, and thus should receive much credit for the work you do on your trees. however, generally that work is limited to branch placement, branch design, and ramification (and of course dead wood work, maybe nebari work, other maintenance and design improvement etc.). but, how many of us can take credit for trunk design?

every great bonsai i've ever seen, many of them largely developed by you folks, has had a wonderful trunk. the issue is, on most of the bonsai we work on we have not created or styled the trunk. in fact, the trunk is usually too large and set for us to really alter it much at all. thus we can never totally take full credit for almost every bonsai any of us will ever own, because we are just working with the trunk we've been given.

of course that brief explanation downplays the awesome bonsai work you guys do. you do lots of complicated crazy stuff i don't even fully understand (yet). but, in a sense, we can't ever take full credit for most of the trees we work on.

as for the snobsai (which i've somehow, in my rant, managed to avoid until now) you clearly can't take full credit for it if you're just maintaining the shape you've purchased or won (althogh doing the maintainance work is nothing to scoff at). and, as i said above, even if you totally rework the tree so that the "master" doesn't recognize it anymore, you can never take credit for that beautiful trunk, which contributes so much to the beauty of the tree, which you were never able to significanly alter.

just some hasty thoughts, that are hopefully related to what you had in mind for this thread.

peace,

toby

A comment from another Bonsai Group on an exhibit of Nick Lenz's trees in Montreal is pertinent.



I've been chewing this question over (philosophical questions help me fall asleep. ) and have come to the following conclusions:

1. A demo tree is like the artist's "cartoon": a sketch of how things should go. Finish the plan and it's "yours", but a nod to the artist is needed.

2. Once you have rewired it, for better or worse, it's "yours". Slavish reproduction of the way it was is "painting by the numbers". Still, a nod to the original artist is owed.

3. Since Bonsai are living things, and change on their own, I think Nick's statement hits the nail on the head.

Looking at the two photos of the cascade, the the second (19649) is so different from the first (19647) that it is NOT Kobayashi's. (BTW, I cut nothing between the two photos. Simply took off the wire after 14 months, and let it grow!)

Generally the Japanese method is 5yrs. However you're responsible the moment you put in on the bench.

It should not be shown for that period, again this is subject to disscussion etc.
I have one tree,a pitch pine that was collected and styled by Marty Schmallenberg back in 95 at the MABA show in Milwaukee. I purchased it out of the auction and I totally restyled it into a cascade. However it is just now beginning to be 'ready' to show due to compactness of the foilage pads and needle reduction.

As has been explained once you receive the tree , it's yours. However you really want to put your mark on it by the sounds of it. I think that as soon as the tree needs some attention, even to be watered, the tree can be called your own. If it is n't cared for the tree becomes nobody's, unless you think the compost heap is in some way personified! I have had some experience of the Japanese Koi interest and to me it is supprising if that's the right word, that the Koi keeper with the most money to spend gains the highest prestige by winning Koi competitions with the fish they have bought. In the world of Koi there are no such qualms. To make the kind of balance that is worrying you Japanese Koi keepers in the U.K. would have to breed their own Koi to receive any accolade.
However, to put your own scent to a tree, (the image of a dog comes to mind) you would have to restyle it. What I would do is keep the Bonsai tree as is, and take inspiration from it. This way if you ever create a tree with great aspirations towards this "snobsai" then you can be proud, and shout from the rooftops that this is a tree of yours. Keeping Bonsai is a very difficult business, unless it all is second nature to you. Bonsai are a bit like cats, do we ever own one, or are we just caretakers.

Who ever made the rule that you have to restyle the tree to make it yours? My own preference is to give credit where it's due if I have just bought a tree and shown it immediately "as is." Of course it's still my tree, but I would definitely mention the artist who created it. After a couple of years, if it has not advanced and maybe is waning somewhat, I have no one to blame but myself, so if it is advancing and improving, I have only myself to credit for the improvement.

What really caught my attention is the derogatory term "snobsai." I resent that term as it has a strong pejorative connotation. Buying quality trees is not snobbish. It's just another way to practice bonsai. If I have ever met a bonsai snob, it was always the other way around: those who sniff if someone buys advanced material or a specimen tree because they "didn't make it themselves."