How long do you feel a tree needs to be in your possession before it becomes your own creation? original work?

From seed?
Sapling?
Stock?
prebonsai?
specimen?
Overgrown reshaped bonsai?
From the moment you buy/find it?
Or maybe a certain length of time? 1yr 2yr ect...


I'm really interested on everyones opinions.

As for me, I feel a tree becomes my 'creation' when I have done something to it that changes its look. I do not feel it is a time thing. You could buy a fairly well developed tree, own it for a year, and do nothing but water and fertilize it. If it is a slow growing tree, it will look approx the same as when you received it.... this is not your creation. But take a tree, young or old, study it, study it some more.... make some drawings or sketches, even in your head.... then proceed to alter the tree. You may alter it with wire for shaping or with cutters to remove unwanted branches and now you are the creator of this tree. This may be but a short time after you obtained the tree.

Hey just my .02 cents

Jay is right!!! I think just the same way...

soon as i`ve purposefuly done something,anything,to change it.
then it is living under my influnce,therefore its shape/style is my creation.

It's not the only measure, but:

A successful repotting certainly increases the feeling of ownership.

Fl,
I think that any stock you create (with the Allmighty's help) Is instantly your own "creation".
Now a plant you buy from some one, especially a allready shaped bonsai, a minumum of three years before you should take any credit. My humble is that you should still give credit to the original owner up untill the point that you have changed it considerably.---B

I think it's proportional to the notoriety of the previous owner.

For example.

1. You get the Ben Oki pine at a club demo: Ten years later at a show, new pot, new planting angle, etc. Club members are overheard: "Oh that's the Ben Oki tree! It's lookin' good!"

2. You win John Naka's Goshin #3 at a BCI exposition: It's never your creation.

3. You collect a 1500-year old California Juniper in the Mojave Desert, and nurse it through 6 months of recuperation..... It's instantly your creation.

A little strange, huh?

Nice analogy...

Which takes me to a conclusion (or so I think), because we're confusing the terms a little bit... The tree will never be your creation, but God's. The shape of the tree, will be your creation but only if you shaped it.

Am I nearly right?

I think if you buy a tree from "Buford Goncheroff", then the tree becomes "your creation" as soon as Buford puts the money in his pocket. If the payee is someone of fame, and the tree has been seen at a few shows and demo's, then you are going to have a much harder time passing off the tree as your creation. I would say its a safe bet that if you bought a tree in Guatamala, and posted it here as your tree, I could almost guarantee that no one would dispute that fact.

When one buys a piece of art, say a painting, then the artist signs the piece at the bottom. The artwork is forever "their"work. That can not be changed, of course why would you paint over it? On the other hand, a bonsai is a living piece of art, with the distinct possibility of dieing in the new owners care. I feel that just keeping a new plant alive that first year counts as something. Even if you change nothing, I feel no need to to bring up the previous owners name, even if you know it. If I buy something It's mine. I have a used truck, I don't tell everyone that the truck used to belong to Cindy Lippschitz, and it will be mine in 16 more eeeezzzzy payments.

These thoughts are brought to you courtesy of, Keppler Soapbox Inc. A real non-profit organization.

Fair enough, Al, but only half of my raison d'etre is to impress those of your who read bonsaiTALK. When do you honestly feel yourself as though the tree has become your creation?

For me, it definitely takes a repotting, as I noted above, and, depending on the starting condition of the tree, some serious restyling as well. Or perhaps more to the point, I start to feel as though a tree is my own once I see a direction for it. It's funny, but sometimes seeing its future is more important, where the feeling of ownership is concerned, than actually implementing that future.