Vance,
I think Chris is talking about the lack of discipleship in the Christian community and likewise the lack of apprenticeship/discipleship in the bonsai community. Christ never "held" anyone's "hand"...but he did disciple them before he packed up and left...Inspiration is never enough to carry one through to the end if there is no foundation in discipline...fires being stoked or no.That pertains to anything one is inspired to pursue in life.

--Ryan

I have been to master demos. I have been to master workshops where you get a couple hours divided amongst 10-15 people. I think they are a waste of time and money from my personal experiences so far. The best money I have spent is in lessons day long with an accomplished artist in a small group. even better than that for the value is simply the help and experience I have received from my fellow club members. Sure I don't mind seeing the master create a work of art, I just don't learn anything from it, or the couple hours where he runs around frantically helping everyone style their tree, doing most of the work, and you end up with a semi started/finished product. Ho-hum.

Instead, the greater value for me was where I brought several peices of material to work in a day long sessions, where I received tons one on one personal attention, direction, and did tons myself, and had it critiqued and corrected.
I would love to spend a weeks vacation or more doing just this, everyday. I do wish I could attend Boon's or Lewis' school. Perhaps it's in the future.

You couldn't be further from the truth, Vance. If you had read my many posts carefully, you would see that while I met Boon when he came to KC for a Master Weekend (and that would be one redeeming quality if the majority of "Masters" were truly masters with great teaching talent), I have since paid considerable sums of money in travel and tuition and a large investment in time (vacations spent away from the bride) in order to travel to California and be taught in depth by this great man.



But really, Vance, how much of the way that teacher actually does bonsai can be seen by the people who come to these things? If the bonsai artist whose personal collection is fantastic and varied, and developed through decades of perseverence, has a slash-and-burn, fastest-wirer-in-the-west style of demonstration, how much can anyone learn from that? And does that style of presentation really bear any resemblance to bonsai? When my teacher came for the event, he spent the time cleaning a Japanese black pine and teaching about it. Very little was actually done to the tree, partly because it was out of season, but I learned more from seeing that than I ever could have learned from some demo on a piece of nursery stock.



I am never surprised when those trees die. It's enough indictment in and of itself.



Actually it's never the evangelist's fault when the convert fails, it's the local church's failure as Bone-sigh has said. How many local clubs are prepared to really teach bonsai to "new converts"? The inspiration that comes from most demos bears so little relation to bonsai that it might as well be a vision on a grilled cheese sandwich.



Well that's the problem then, isn't it? Demonstrations by their nature are not how true masters of the art work firsthand. Of course they are human and have feet of clay. Of course they make mistakes or do too much or do too little and the tree struggles. And if the new member wins the raffle and the tree dies, do they learn that "Even a monkey falls out of a tree sometimes?" No, they learn that bonsai is hard and they didn't know enough to save even a tree styled by a "master." What kind of inspiration is that?

And if "Masters" have feet of clay, then why is it we only see their successes in the books, not the struggles or failures? Why do we never see the process that makes for great bonsai? Because it's hard. It may be tedious. It may require patience. And it makes poor theater. Vance, I have never seen, for example, you do a demo. But I have learned a good deal about the daily care and training of mugho pine bonsai from your posts here. The two bear no resemblance to one another, unless you are a remarkable teacher. And if you are, then your demos don't bear much resemblance to most demos being done in the U.S.

Why is it we demand the triumphant, the miracle, and why are most of them only too willing to comply? Because the appellation "Master" has such an allure? Sorry, but I will take the average guy or gal quietly teaching the best they know over most of the roving bands of "Masters" available in the U.S today.

I have the great luck to get invited all over the world for conventions, club events, 'shows' etc.. Normally they want a workshop for only two to three hours. Or they demand a demo of a raffle tree.

I never fail to point out that a much longer workhop, like a full day at least, would be so much better. People could bring several trees, they could bring all sorts of material, from raw to 'finished'. The first two hours of the workshop would be a thorough joint tree critique of whatever is there.
I never fail to tell them that a raffle tree is not such a good idea. Especially when I have to do it within two hours. It almost never is the right kind of material, often chosen by the treasurer.
I never fail to offer what I call a tree inspiration. It is an event where as many people as possible bring one or several trees in all stages of development. I speak about every single one thoroughly. It can last up to four hours in one session. There can be two sessions in one day. It costs just the same as if I had done the silly raffle tree. The scheme for the members can be that every one who brings a tree pays five dollars. Or even better, every one who does NOT bring a tree pays five dollars. There can be as many people as the room holds. I have done this with 50 to 100 people and more.

Result: they come back 'we understand, but our format is set and we ask you to do the short workshop and the two hour demo'.

It has all to do with the organizers. It has to do with their concept of never losing money with a visitor from outside. It has all to do with 'we always have done it that way and it worked'.

It also has to do with finances. A top name gets at least US$ 500 per day. For five days that's 2,500. Who is going to pay for that?

I ask a lump sum for a weekand and they can get whatever they want. Usually they want the raffle tree and two workshops. Forgive me, before I say no, normally I will finally do it.

Chris,

Thanks for a thread that does not contain that "A" word

I would love to give you positive rep points, but the system will not let me - "spread them out more", so I'll see who else can have some !

Anyway,

Many years ago I undertook 1 day courses with well respected Bonsai professionals, most of which were in the winter, when Bonsai wise there is not much happening. Who was I to question, re-potting bare rooted specimen trees in the middle of winter and then undertaking extensive pruning or styling work. If they were offering the courses, they obviously had done it before and of course achieved a success rate above 99%

How many of those trees do I still have in my collection today ? - absolutely none. !!!!

One has to understand, that these professionals needed to make money just like anyone else, and 20 years ago, it was very much a case of lets offer the courses, since even if the tree dies, the student learnt the correct techniques.
Oouch ! on the pocket when you pay for good stock and a nice pot to go with the Teachers time.
Needless to say, I stopped such activity 10 years ago or more.

Also, how many demonstration trees from the various shows do you see again after a couple of years. I can think of only a handful from over 20 years.

Fast forward now to today..............

With the wealth of knowledge available in Books and on the Internet, both Teachers and Students (even rookies) have a greater awareness of what is expected.
Nurseries offer courses aimed at considering the Care and Development of a single tree over the course of several visits to the "master". Trees are subjected to the right processes at the right time and a "controlled approach" is very much the norm. It is by using this new approach, that Bonsai as a hobby and Specialist Bonsai nurseries are going through somewhat of an expansion here within the U.K.

Students, are wise to attain some basics first, and generally have no fear that any professional course or dayclub will be nothing other than informative and value for money.
As Walter has mentioned, just dont expect too much in any one single day and be wise to what and where you spend your money.

Visits, by touring Professionals are more than welcome at Club meetings, but because of the above points, just do not cram too much in to make it a financially viable proposition. Far better to have a talk, presentation and perhaps critiques with minor alterations, than to risk upsetting the "Master" and the "Student" alike.

Bonsai should be a slow steady improvement in our Trees and not a sudden quick fix all done in a day. We then are able to learn more and perhaps more importantly - retain more knowledge.

Have a pleasant journey up the mountain. One day, with enough drive and enthusiam, we can reach the summit and look back on where we have been.

Best Regards,
Ian

Bart, if memory serves, you could say that ABS is "going back" to seminars. Seems to me that is what they did every year in times past. I remember one I attended in 1979 (?) at the UC Davis campus. Cost-wise it was a really good deal. Attendees had the option of renting a dorm room, which I did, at a cost far less than a hotel or motel.
I think that all the bonsai organizations should give serious thought to reducing cost and improving quality.

Mike

Mike:

ABS says that they are going back to seminars.

I think seminars are a good idea where particular ideas, concepts and techniques can be explored completely without the duplicity of having dead material at the end. However my point still remains, and so far has not been addressed. This problem is not the fault of the traveling bonsai master but the clubs and organizations the contract them, hire them, and then proceede to over book the program in an attempt to recoup the fee. What is needed is for the clubs to tell the "Master" up front exactly what it is they are looking to have happen and council with the "Master" to make sure this is what happens.

Sadly that is not what takes place. A Master is brought in for a demonstration, the club usually supplies the material (which in most cases is pretty bad) and an instant bonsai is expected, mostly because the club is looking to raffle or sell the tree off to make money on the project, the tree is totally brutalized in order to fill the contract and consequently dies. So yes, there is a problem here, but the problem is with the clubs that seek to have one of these one day events take place. You can't blame the "Master" (in most cases) for the results of this kind of thinking.

What is the solution?? The clubs and organizations have to change their way of thinking. Most clubs don't have a clue as to how important a sound educational program is to the life and longevity of a club, they just look at a twelve month agenda and try to fill the calendar. There is very little discussion as to what is expected, except cost and profit, and almost none as to the effects on the membership outside of the entertainment quality of the event. To top that off, there is very little comunications with the "Master" prior to the event outside of cost and guarantees that he/she will show up. All most no attention is payed to details and agenda with a goal in mind that does not involve money.

Part of that problem lies in the lack of knowledge of those who schedule such events. Most of the time, getting a commitment from a "Master" and conecting all the dots as to material, transportation and fees are arranged, the individual in charge of the event is seldom required to pay attention to much more than that. Being satisfied with fullfilling the above commitment the rest is left in the hands of the suspecting and the suspect, we have done our part so there is nothing left to do. It is in this paucity that the fault lies.

I have been very fortunate over the years to have done work with a couple of clubs that have had the mental maturity to understand that good and lasting results cannot be acheived in one encounter, and that no matter what, an instant bonsai is not going to be the result of our first encounter. I have also been fortunate to have these clubs call me back to finish the job. Most clubs will not make a long term commitment with one individual and one concept to follow to completion. My criticizim of some of the traveling Masters, and one in prticular that will go un-named, is that some of them are more than willing to take the money (as much as they can negotiate) and run, knowing that they will probably not be asked back for an encoure.

It is starting to change but it has to be done at the club/organization level where the concept of an instant bonsai is abandoned.

I remember last year at MBS my teacher at the time (Ivan Waters of Yaukunai) brought his teacher over from Japan (Susumo Nakamura). The person coordinating the club meeting for that month had picked out some material for him to work on, but it was definately sub-par for someone of his stature.

He didn't say anything, but just walked through the nursery and pointed out a different tree and said he would work on that one. Now, that tree happened to be a very old Japanese Black Pine that had been imported many years ago. It was owned by one of our club members who was just housing it at the nursery. It was an amazing tree, but had been let go for many years.

Fortuantley, the owner was able to swallow his pride and agreed to let Mr. Nakamura work on the tree. What resulted was an amazing demonstration of the resurection of a world class tree.

Long story short, if you get the visiting master involved in the planning process, instead of just dumping him into it, you are likely to end up with a better result.

- bob

Vance,

I didn't write this thread as an indictment of "Masters." It's an indictment of the whole system, the clubs that demand all the pap they have ever known, and the "Masters" who play to that. But the more I think about it, the more blame I have to put on these so-called "Masters" whose reputation depends on demonstrating more trees for raffle to recoup the finances of the clubs.

How can such changes in attitude and expectations come about unless so-called masters stand up for the courage of their convictions? It seems to be more about the pay and the infamy of being a "Master" than what's right for bonsai. Mr. Nakamura, as Bob has mentioned, had higher expectations and the club got far more than it bargained for. Did it make a profit on the transaction? Probably not. That's why it's a nonprofit instead of a business. Did it profit anyway? You bet, with more knowledgeable members who will tell stories of that visit for many years.

Any "master" who lets a club bring him or her in, speed-styles some trees for raffle, and then rides into the sunset, should be ashamed for compromising what they know to be the proper way to create valuable bonsai. This hit-and-run demo lifestyle is why we have people who have been doing bonsai for one year, thirty times in a row, instead of building thirty years' experience. All many club members have ever seen is chop, chop, wire, wire, repot, repot, wither and die. Or if a "Master" tree survives, it ends up being a poor shadow of what the tree may have been. Or it may never have had a chance to be anything, but was used because that was the crappy material given to the master.

But who is responsible to stand up and say, "Enough! Don't ask someone to work on this material, ask someone to teach you bonsai!" My God, the very demonsrations that are being done violate even common-sense horticultural principles! But we do it every year. It will never change until teachers start saying no.