Perhaps my reply leaded to a missunderstanding, With a little more, I was talking about the money for your time, as David said, because you can't only charge the pot, soil, wire, tree, and everything you used, because there you are forgeting the tool depreciation, (for being rigurous with the costs), your own "salary" at working on the tree, the water you used to water it, the fertilizer... Man, if we come down to costs, believe me the trees would go over $100...

When I said it depends on the buyer, don't tell me, you wouldn't make a friend a discount, or wouldn't you, just to be FAIR... isn't it true? well, I believe, that if you don't have price labels, on your trees, then you're fixing the price according to the buyer, aren't you? then why you come to tell me, I'm not being fair... Is just that if you already fixed a price for a tree, then you might keep it... If somebody would come here and ask me for one of my trees, I wouldn't start thinking about costs, only in sentimental stuff, then I would think on a price, but of course, if it's a friend I would ask a little less than to anybody else...

Let me explain it this way, I give classes to some friends, and I know their economical status, so I charge according to that... To some friend I could have charged something like $20 the class, but I charged her $5, but she asked me for nearly 10 classes instead of 1, I got more for more job, but I wouldn't have worked at all, if she wouldn't call me... so I got more, she got more, that's my idea of being fair, I'm sorry if you understood that I was a thief.... I'm far from that... Once I had to reinstall a webpage, and I billed before doing the job _(big mistake) but I had some troubles and I had to take money from my pocket to cover my mistake, I lost, but the costumer won, now they trust me, and like to make business with me, so in the end I won... see that's being fair... or not?

well, sorry I sounded like a thief...

Al Keppler; shame on you!
Point one, just because you are so sinsitive that no one can talk around you.
Point two, I said "a person" not Al Keppler, so why do you have your shorts in a twist.
Point three, I should be entitled to my opinion with out your attacks.
Point four,why are you kicking what I do, suggesting that it has no value.
Point five,The future out come for the plants that I grow is for the owner to decide and not you.
And last, you have spent just about 30 minnets on the property two years ago, so how does this give you an opinion. When it comes to the property and what we are growing and what stages the material is at, you don't know the front of your hand from the back.
I quit posting into anything that you were talking on for this reason and the fact that others suggested I should leave you alown. This is a good reason why.
Why do you have to attack me personally? I certanily did not use your name and I did not attack you. SO WHATS UP AL

Glenn

Glenn,
I asked a question. Many individuals answered the question. Your answer was a response not an answer. Al, did answer, you were upset. Please do this by PM, telephone calls, email or other methods. You are not contributing to this thread. YOU DO contribute to many threads, but I am still looking for an answer to my question in your responses.... I do not see one!

Glenn wrote:
"Point three, I should be entitled to my opinion with out your attacks."
--------------------

No one is entitled to anything here. We agree to have discussion, and because disagreements arise, we also have debate and WE ALSO VOICE OUR OPINIONS. It is EACH of our perogatives to voice opinions here. It is also a given that others may object to our opinions.

What some call attacks, others call disagreements and others call corrections and other call "taking issue with things other people say."

This is why we're here - not to post things and simply have everyone agree with what we've posted. Can we stop with the indignity and silly notions of what we're all entitled to. This is the kind of idiocy that causes Americans to think that they have Constitutional Rights. There's no such thing, but you couldn't tell that by talking to 99 percent of Americans. This is not a RIGHTS culture, it's a FREEDOM culture. Get the hint.

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
zone 8, Texas

Hi Jay - if only I had such a dilemma!. I think the "moral dilemma" as described is more about YOU - not the guest you have described or what you have invested in the tree.

I am, therefore, going to assume that the "you" in your secenario is 1)retired or has time available to be generous with it, 2) comfortable financially and not in need of additional income and 3) a nice guy - you are - so I assume you mean that to be the case, here.

The price should be what will allow you to sleep well that night and spend time at your bench the next day with a smile on your face. That price may well be dependent on your take on the guest - granted. It may be zero - "Take it home and bring it back every month or so - we can work on it togethor" - a chance to teach a worthy (in your assessment) student of bonsai - also a chance to make sure your tree is cared for properly. Or - it may be "I have $50 in that tree and my time over the past 10 years - but I do not sell trees for profit so I will let you have it for $50 and your time - some help during potting season. Would you be willing to spend say, about 20 hours here in the spring?" Or - it may be "Sorry, I don't sell my trees to strangers. Ask me again in a year or so when I know you better."

Thoughts about value

I guess my answer is simple. I wouldn’t sell a tree to a friend. Trade, yes. Sell, no. I’ve parted with a number trees, but most of them have been relatively raw collected material that I could do without, and in exchange I got three trees I can’t collect—a Kingsville boxwood, a collected Korean hornbeam, and a really nice informal upright juniper. This trade was with a bonsai nursery in Massachusetts. I have also traded once with a friend—a monster honeysuckle I collected myself, in trade for several trees. That one I parted with only because I couldn’t justify a separate trip in my truck to bring it with me when I move. I wish I could have brought it with me.

I’m not sure I agree with Glenn that the higher a price you pay for a tree, the more careful you are with it. The trees I worry about the most are the ones I’ve collected myself. This is because I have become very selective about what I collect, and I value each for its individuality, and the fact that it developed . And, I’m the one who has initially taken it out of the ground, done the drastic initial root-pruning, etc.

When I buy from a bonsai nursery that I’m familiar with and trust, I know that they have priced the material to reflect the time put into it. It might be too high for my budget, but I’m not going to argue. Would I jump at the chance to buy it on sale? Sure, if the sale price brought it down to what I could afford.

I wouldn't sell a tree to somebody off the street. When I lived in Maine our house was on the main st. and my trees were in the side yard. People were coming up all the time asking if I sold them. I always said no, guessing that for most they just asked because they thought they were cute and wanted to give one to a friend for their birthday or something.

Craig Cowing
Blooming Grove NY
Zone 5b/6a

OK here is my take. I am not a professional, nor are my trees developed for the purpose of sale. I am slowly acquiring more and more and more! I may be reaching the point that I need to 'thin the bench'. If I decide to move any of my trees, I would prefer to find someone who I too could trade with. Most of my trees are raw or very young. Many were rushed into pots before their time. If I was the person in the above situation, I would try and inform the newbie that the trees he/she liked of mine were far from finished. They may appear to be wonderful to him/her but look at this and that. I would suggest they join a club, or perhaps we could set up some 'play dates' and discuss and learn from each other. I would try and stay away from the tree they purchased.

In reading an article by Walter Pall, he brought up an interesting point. We start to develop a tree with the eyes and ability we presently have. By the time the tree is a few years into development or eyes and ability have increased beyond the level we had thought of for the tree. The direction we decided to go in a few years ago now seems, well, different.
We should try and develop our trees so they are at a point in several years that our ability level at the time can deal with. I know I've gone off a bit but it is an interesting thought.

Jay:
You're right. That's why I'm more selective about what I collect than I was a couple of years ago. I have a better idea of what tree will work, and what tree has potential for the future.

Which article by Walter are you referring to?

Craig Cowing
Blooming Grove NY
Zone 5b/6a

Jay if you really think about this the answer is that the material is yours and you can do with it what ever you want. This does not include taking advantage of a newbie who has money. If you are willing to sell a tree set a price on it and let it go. Once the money changes hands and ownership is passed the new owner can do with it as he will. If you can not let it go then don't put a price on it, this is also your decision.

Glenn

As said by Rip


Ownership huh... Does this mean that he can now put this tree in a show without all the original owner jazz?

Seems this wasn't your view about 8 months ago.