Allright then, seeing as the discussion has got around to 'bonsai/accent' distinctions, does my bamboo grove qualify as a bonsai or an accent?

I'm not sure myself, on one hand, if you scale yourself down small you could imagine yourself walking through a grove of giant bamboo. On the other hand if you look at from the normal human size scale it is just an accent to a large chinese style bonsai or something.

Am I trying to be too clever or is this what people have been talking about?

Regards,

The whole concept of "tree-ness" is an interesting one. Most all of my bonsai fall into that catagory. I think most bonsai growers would agree that bonsai should look like a tree. That's OK with me. I once had a client ask me "what kind of tree is that bush?" Which was kind of funny because I was planting a witchazel at the time he asked me. It can be classified as both.

It's really a matter of words, definitions and your individual point of view anyways.

Craig is right on when he says " the meaning of bonsai has changed through the years." It will most likely continue to do so
as time goes by, but I doubt if the same definition will satisfy every individual grower.
In the end, I don't think we can define with absolute certainty, any of the Arts. I do believe Bonsai is an Art.

Treebeard,

I think it can be classifided as both a bonsai and an accent plant depending on how it is used. IMHO.

I agree with Gary. And I think it's a beautiful planting.

Have you considered dropping it into a much shallower container? I think that would substantially increase the impact:

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]Originally posted by ripsgreentree

>I know this, a sure sign of someone who knows everything is a closed coffin, until then we all have something more to learn.

I know that for myself I have a lot to learn, after only 3 years. Even after 20 years or more, there will still be more to learn.

>Do not be so quick to trash something before you know all about it.

If you read my last post again you will see that I'm not trashing anybody or anything. I simply said that for me bonsai generally involves something that looks like a tree. I don't feel that that is trashing. Most of the definitions you will read basically say that, at least from what I've seen thus far.

>For what it is worth the Japanese are quickly developing a catagory of bonsai that is basically accent plants. I know of two Japanese magazines that are centered entirely on these kinds of arrangements. If this is not your cup of tea, fine but why trash it for others?

>Just asking.

If someone else sees these types of plantings as bonsai, that's fine. I don't. Again, it doesn't mean I don't like them. I have been experimenting with them myself, and expect to continue to do so.

Why is that unless I apply the most superlative term to something, I am "trashing" it? In the context of bonsai, just because somebody is not willing to apply that term to something, does that devalue it? I just don't see it.

Craig Cowing
Zone 5b+

I did not direct my comments to any specific party, but it is good to see that someone was reading. For those die hard it's got to have a woody stem, or trunk. I offer the Japanese master who created a bonsai from the majestic dandelion and kept it alive for several years. My point only being that while I concede that we are all entitled to our differences of opinion one crosses the line by saying things like, is not, can't be or will never be. The world masters have taken the art of trees to great heights and deserve all of the accolades that come with this aspect of the art of bonsai. I will assure you that bonsai is more about living art than just about trees. Every artist works with the material that is in his possesion and while not every composition is great or masterful it is still meaningfull to the artist. Some work in oil some in acrylic some in chalk it is all art. Some work with trees some with herbs and some with grasses flowers or bamboo it is all bonsai on some level.

I didn't see anyone trashing little plants in pots. We were just debating whether or not they should be called bonsai or not. For me, no, I would call them accent plants. But that's me and my opinion. It doesn't bother me a bit if someone else wants to call them bonsai.

Tony

You know it's topics like this that stimulate me to redefine myself and my plants as far as my commitment to my daily bonsai routine.

When we start out in bonsai we make a commitment to our plants, that we will give them the care they need to survive and if we're fortunate enough to keep learning about the Art of Bonsai our trees respond and they age and grow gracefully and we get enjoyment out of the commitment we initially made when we started taking care of them.

There are all types of Bonsai people. Hobbiests and amatures, growers and propagators, collectors and connoisseurs.

The one thing we all have in common is that we strive to make our bonsai the best they can be. I'm still amazed that my bonsai, whatever plant they may be, wake up in the spring, put out growth and act like ordinary plants in the landscape-it's a real wonder to me.
I don't own or have I raised my masterpiece
and I probably never will. Possibly my son or his son will if I we can continue to sustain the miniatures that are now in our possession, because the Art of bonsai lies in twisting a branch here or there, moving the tree a little to the left or right, finding a better pot, checking a disease, etc. All the pinching and those times during the day when you think about your plants and go out and spend time with them and check them to see if they are OK. That's what make bonsai Bonsai!
In the end though I think it's their beauty at whatever stage they are in that keeps me at it— trying to paint that masterpiece.

I wonder if there is a perfect bonsai?................................ Nah!

Well said, Gary. Is there a perfect bonsai tree? If you got 5 of us together discussing it we would have 10 opinions on how to make it better.

But it's the striving to make our trees the best they can be and the need to create our own art that keeps this whole thing fun.

Tony

Catching up on this thread, I pulled out my book "Penjing: Worlds of Wonderment" by Qingquan Zhao. To say that his works of art would not be bonsai but landscapes would be amazing. He has created absolutely stunning works of bonsai (penjing because he is chinese). To take the concept of bonsai and narrow it from plantings in a tray to a tree in a pot, is to do a disservice to both the Chinese and Japanese and all oriental cultures that started this wonderful art. Why would we want to do that?

As for tree-ness, Zhao's description much better fits my ideas: "It is the re-creation of the mystical beauty of nature in a container."
We are not just producing tree-like structures, we are developing something that brings us the beauty and mystery and awe of nature. When we see a beautiful bonsai, and our breath shortens, or we stand before it actually holding our breath in awe, we are not doing so because the creation is tree in a pot, but because it has actually struck a deep chord that resonates with all of nature. When we feel peaceful and calm, it is because we are reconnecting with our roots in the life all around us.

Only when we come out of our mystical state, do we start to analyze the tree and think "look at the branch structure, look at the pot, look at the age." But then we have moved from ART to CRAFT.

Come to think of it, maybe that's why so many people have criticized the Artful Environements display (see the threads about that elsewhere). They go to the display to examine the craft of growing the tree, instead of standing back and appreciating the mystery and awe of the natural scene the artist is attempting to convey.

Earl.