I would say that the aim is more along the lines of "to convey a sense of tree-ness."

One of the things that amazes us, as human beings, about trees is their lifespan - they can surpass us by an order of magnitude. Another thing that amazes us is their height - here they've got us by almost two orders of magnitude. Yet another is their endurance under the harshest of conditions.

And so it's little surprise that we see some of these characteristics featuring prominantly in bonsai design. Nonetheless, I would argue that age is not essential. Perhaps you are familiar with the "towering tree style" of Lingnan-school penjing. Here age seems to play a very minor role - these trees are slender, unscarred, young or at least ageless, reaching for the sky as if "to transcent the vulgar world and to fre oneself of all desires in an effort to attain immortality." *

Young trees are marvellous things as well. A 60 year old redwood or sequoia reaches into the sky as if it will never know limitation. A young tree blessed with the good fortune to grow in fertile and mild field fills out into a beautiful dome of foliage. These are aspects of nature, of treeness, to celebrate and for which to strive in our bonsai creations.

All the best,
Old Mister Crow



--

* Hu Yunhua, Chinese Penjing

I have to agree with Craig, that grass in a pot, may be beautiful, and to me is a 'landscape planting' but it isnt a 'bonsai' IMO. A bonsai is a tree or trees in a pot without stuck on stones, bridges, houses, horses mudmen cars etc etc. just the tree or group in a pot. Simple. I have seen some wonderful pictures (in a chinese book i think) of horses grazing on hills beneath wind blown trees, but i wouldnt call it bonsai, its a landscape planting. It was beautiful.

When you paint a house, it that a work of art? (well it isnt when i do it ) but it is painting, its just a different form of the same thing, no better no worse, but not the same. maybe a bad example but im sure you get what im tring to say...

Cheers

Juliet

Originally posted by oldmistercrow


>I would say that the aim is more along the lines of "to convey a sense of tree-ness."

Well, yes, of course.



>And so it's little surprise that we see some of these characteristics featuring prominantly in bonsai design. Nonetheless, I would argue that age is not essential.

Actual age, no. Illusion of age? That's the question.

> Perhaps you are familiar with the "towering tree style" of Lingnan-school penjing. Here age seems to play a very minor role - these trees are slender, unscarred, young or at least ageless, reaching for the sky as if [i]"to transcent the vulgar world and to fre oneself of all desires in an effort to attain immortality."

I'm not familiar with that school, but certainly such an image is very evocative. A well-done forest planting with thin, tall, straight trees is also evocative.

>Young trees are marvellous things as well. A 60 year old redwood or sequoia reaches into the sky as if it will never know limitation. A young tree blessed with the good fortune to grow in fertile and mild field fills out into a beautiful dome of foliage. These are aspects of nature, of treeness, to celebrate and for which to strive in our bonsai creations.

Ok, if the point is not an illusion of age, what about the illusion of being established? The kind of thing that a well-formed root base will evoke?

Craig Cowing
Zone 5b+

>All the best,
Old Mister Crow



--

I would have to agree with Craig and Juliet. Technically they are not bonsai. The kanji specify tree and pot. There has to be something more, obviously, the artistic dimension. The original driver being the display of God-styled trees, later those works shaped primarily by man.

The grass plantings even have their own name. Which I forget, as I appreciate their beauty but frankly I think really are too akin to flower arranging... but at least not as inane as the pet rocks...

:^)

"Four Seasons" was "revolutionary" for it's time. This is one of the first English "picture books" that really showed numerous finished works, with no connection to teaching material. One of the goals was to reveal that bonsai have qualities beyond their simple miniaturized tree-ness. It is a celebration of seasonal glory and symbolism. Simply because it includes "accent plantings" does not imply that grasses are now bonsai. It implies that other plants can be used as symbols and seasonal or environmental indicators.

Jim
a very damp TX

>I would say that the aim is more along the lines of "to convey a sense of tree-ness."

I have to agree with OMC. Bonsai is not only about expressing a feeling of age and wisdom. There are many types of trees in the world in which we perceive other qualities as well - calmness, perseverance, balance, youth and exuberance, strength in hardship, elegance. Since we can perceive all these qualities in the world of trees and bonsai is an emulation of this world of trees, then it stands to reason that it is possible to recreate all of these qualities as bonsai. A tree designed to express youth and freshness is no more or less a bonsai than an aged tree showing hardship - given that both are produced with equal regard to the guidelines and rules of bonsai. It's simply a different expression.
Is Picasso a greater or lesser artist than Van Gogh because he painted in a different way?

Most people will be drawn to a certain character of tree. I personally like the top-of-the-mountain, blasted-by-nature, lots-of-deadwood kind of tree and have VERY few trees in my yard that express balance or fragility or calmness. But that's just my character. Someone else would look at my trees and see nothing that interests them at all. At the same time, I could not walk up to someone else's quiet, calm and balanced trees and speak ill of them for not having deadwood and a sense of long-suffering perseverence. His trees as bonsai should be celebrated in the same way that I celebrate my vision of bonsai and the trees I care for.

>Ok, if the point is not an illusion of age, what about the illusion of being established? The kind of thing that a well-formed root base will evoke?

The illusion of being established is simply one of the guidelines. Everybody who teaches states that one of the first things to look for is a good root spread. A tree without stability in the pot, whether young or old, is not a desireable quality.

The first kanji character in BON-SAI is "tray" and the second, SAI, "to plant." There is no literal tree.

The character for SAI contains radicals for tree and earth, but that is a figurative, not literal, composition.

Regards,

Matt

Craig,

That pot of grasses I talked about was 4' high. It was in a chinese pot and it would be hard to classify it as an accent plant..........it stood on it's own.

I'm not saying you can just slap any old crappy plant in a crappy pot and call it bonsai or art. What I am saying is that you can think outside the box and create bonsai out of any plant in a tray so long as it conveys a certain sense of beauty. What you described doesn't fit in that catagory.

I come from a horticultural backround so I like to see plants go through their seasonal changes. I like to see the differences in their roots and so forth. I enjoy propagating them and watching them grow. This part of bonsai is important to me.

What I'm trying to convey was best said by Kyuzo Murata in the preface of his last book before he died. He came to these conclusions after 70 years of doing bonsai, 60 of which were spent caring for the Imperial household's collection in Japan.

Art is a cultural thing. I'm not Japanese but my own personal preferences lean towards the
classical style of bonsai(Japanese style). Not growing up in Japan I don't have the temperment or the same sensitivity that most Japanese bonsai people have. Their culture is different but we are seeing a melding of the culture in our lifetime. I think that's one of the reasons why there are so many styles emerging such as the Contemporary style or what ever you want to call it.
It's difficult for me to explain these things on a forum- I don't type fast.

If you don't have a copy of Kyuzo Murata's book "Four Seasons Of Bonsai" try and get one and look at the pictures and read his words. It does have a way broadening one's thinking about bonsai and what it is.

It's enjoyable to be able to discuss these things.

Al said:

"Can I take a laptop with me to do all this studyin, this nature stuff really cramps my style for BonsaiTalk"

We can do better than that! Take your laptop, digi camera and cell phone with internet modem and we'll tell you where to dig.


I suppose the meaning of bonsai has changed through the years. At it's basic level it may mean "plant in a tray" but for most who have studied it or grown it, it means so much more. For me, the wild grasses in a pot doesn't cut it. I think a bonsai should have a woody trunk and branches and should portray a tree in nature, or at least one that is possible in nature. This still leaves plenty of possibilities for individual likes and dislikes when it comes to style. Sorry, but if it has a green celery stalk for a trunk, it ain't bonsai in my book.

Tony

Originally posted by Tony



>I suppose the meaning of bonsai has changed through the years. At it's basic level it may mean "plant in a tray" but for most who have studied it or grown it, it means so much more. For me, the wild grasses in a pot doesn't cut it. I think a bonsai should have a woody trunk and branches and should portray a tree in nature, or at least one that is possible in nature. This still leaves plenty of possibilities for individual likes and dislikes when it comes to style. Sorry, but if it has a green celery stalk for a trunk, it ain't bonsai in my book.

Tony

I'm basically in the same place as Tony. Don't get me wrong--I enjoy seeing grasses and plants that others would call "weeds" in containers. Next year I'm hoping to branch out and experiment with plantings using some of the wide variety of grasses and plants in my yard. I will even use bonsai pots for that. But I won't call them "bonsai." I guess I stop at the water's edge in terms of trees with woody trunks.

As Tony said, there is still plenty of room for styles and preferences. For me, I'm not necessarily against using trees with larger leaves. I'm planning to collect an ash in our back yard in the spring that has a wonderfully gnarled trunk and aged bark. It seems as though it is growing on top of some rocks just below the soil line but I don't know for sure. Ash has compound leaves that are often 10" long, leaflets are 2-3". I'll just plan on making it larger.

My point is that within "tree-ness" there is an incredibly wide range of options. Same goes for tropicals with larger leaves. A person could spend the rest of their life experimenting with different types of trees and never cover all bases.

Grow grasses, etc. in pots? Sure. It adds color and seasonal accent. Bonsai? Not for me. That doesn't devalue such plantings in the least. It just isn't bonsai.


Craig Cowing
Zone 5b+

Well for those of you who are discussing accent plants that will stand on their own you should know that this new fad in "weed bonsai" was started in Japan and is all the rage there and that they call it bonsai. But then what do they know?
I know this, a sure sign of someone who knows everything is a closed coffin, until then we all have something more to learn.
Do not be so quick to trash something before you know all about it. For what it is worth the Japanese are quickly developing a catagory of bonsai that is basically accent plants. I know of two Japanese magazines that are centered entirely on these kinds of arrangements. If this is not your cup of tea, fine but why trash it for others?

Just asking.