By no contention, Andy must be referring to IBC's days of posts on the matter. I think it takes a full week to be a matter of contention ;^)

I find it interesting that the pottery list argues much the same issues...

Anyhow, I agree with Andy that definitions must not be compromised, not even for little Johnny's self esteem. Granted, there are societal interpretations and contexts, but there must be some underlying universal essence to meet the definition, especially with the particularly slippery amoeba, "art"...

So...I hit Webster's and basically it's summed up as requiring both craft and creative imagination especially in aesthetic works. But I see no limitation TO aesthetic works...

So, craft is not art, but art does require craft i.e., skill, learning knowledge... and it can be functional... So does this mean that "Piss Christ" is really art?

Does extremism and shock value count for creative imagination or does it beat a dead horse? Are these "artists" really craftsmen working an assemblyline at the shock art factory... or, to bring it back to topic, the mushroom canopied driftwood bonsai studio....

It says nothing of messages, emotions, how it makes the artist feel, fulfiling his rights to create....

I often think I see a perversion of Bruce Lee's philosophy "The best style is no style" in art and other endeavours- rules put boundaries and limitations. Even the simple "common sense" rules of knowing one's media seems to be thought of as too restrictive. But what is really required is a mastery of the rules and one's self that sets you free of stylistic limitations, artistic principles, regionalistic schools...

Well gotta run to class...


Sincerely,

Jim

Good points, Jim. Actually, part of Bruce Lee's adage is applicable and part of it is not. The reasons behind his adage were:

1) Back when "styles" of martial science were very specific to schools and families, one could train against the doctrine of a specific style or family method and have the "antidote" to that "style" - not applicable to our situation...

and 2) one first learned all of the rules of all of the styles and then used the techniques as one wished in a skilled fashion without a specific doctrine in order to be most effective in application (Bruce's ideal of the best "style"). This one is applicable to our discussion and shoot holes in the mistaken tack taken by many - that "rules" are not important in such things as art. It's a vaccuous idea.

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
b u n j i n | d e s i g n :: www.bunjindesign.com
zonen 8, Texas

Here are a few other observations:

Art:
1)A form of human activity appealing to the imagination, especially drawing, painting, sculpture, architecture, poetry, music, and dancing..............bonsai.

The arts are civilization's storehouse of felt values, the rendering of what has seemed important to those of powerful imagination and profound feeling and great mastery of
expression(Harper's).

2)A branch of learning that depends more on special practice than on general principles:
Writing compositions is an art; grammar is a science.

3)Working principles; methods.
The art of war. The art of Bonsai?

Archaic-learning in general

These definitions came from a dictionary from the early 1950's.
I found them and thought I'd put them out for discussion.

I find it very difficult to philosophize when it comes to bonsai. I am more of a Zen type of person so.............I'll let you all do it instead.

I too DO bonsai. I find that much easier to live with.

Interesting discussion though!

Hi all, Andy doesn't post here much, which is a shame since he writes so well. Course, no one would subscribe if he graced all his wisdom across these pages, now would we. I on the other hand, would like to find the secret button that gets Andy out in the open for all to enjoy. Guess I found the right button. No one more passionate bout art than Rutledge. As usual your assesment of the public schools is right on. The moral decay and desensitizing of our youth to murder, guns and sex is out of control. I think things like Piss Christ, and Christoff, (or whatever his name was, the guy who unfurled hundreds of yards of white cloth all over the place) have gone out of their way to take the "art" out of art.

The Bonsai that was on the IBC a few months ago, the tree and roots over the ancient statue, I think captured the "shock value" sometimes missing in bonsai. Nick Lenz and a few other seem to come up with a new slant every once and a while. I for one look forward to seeing the next shock bonsai. The peice Kimura did a few years ago on the 45 degree tilted slab with the forest growing verticle on it was a real eye popper.

It only took about 50 years for the west to diminish the art of bonsai to a few plants in a cheap blue pot at the mall, I'll bet it takes a lot longer to restore it to its original grandeur.

Ever feel like your trying to hold back the ocean with a broom?

Regards, Al keppler

FWIW We didn't invent mallsai. Japan sells them too, always has.. . They probably weren't the first either. Maybe the Chinese...

Potters have to deal with cheao knock offs from the MArtha Stewart line... Painters contend with art that matches the sofa from the mall repro/poster shop.... Then there's Muzack, Eminem and the Back Street Boys....

It comes with the territory.

Jim
TX

You missed the two classics: Velvet Elvis and the "Dogs playing poker".

Howly mama we're back to the "is bonsai art?" thing AND the "is mallsai bonsai?" thing in the same thread. I've said it before, but the way to promote bonsai as an art is to evangelize, to use a term from my line of work. Get out and do demos and lectures. For myself, I'm going to be doing a lecture/demo at our local library in April 2003. This will provide me with a chance to gauge the level of interest in bonsai in my area, since there aren't any local clubs or nurseries. All we have is mallsai.

Bear in mind I have only been doing bonsai for 3 years, but in that time I've gotten a few trees to the the point that they look pretty good, and have been able to acquire some good ones as well. When people see these the scales fall off their eyes. All they have seen are mallsai. Even with my mediocre examples they instinctively see the difference. This can possibly be the beginning of a new understanding for them--the difference between mallsai and bonsai.

When I show others some of my trees in development, such as my 122 year old crabapple that I have cut back and have bent a branch over with a turnbuckle to make a new upper trunk, and explain that this tree won't be a bonsai for at least 5 years, they begin to understand that there is more to bonsai than just planting a seed and expecting a miniature tree to magically pop out of the soil.

Many times people have commented to me that there must be some art to bonsai. I say that there is no art to keeping a tree alive in a pot. That takes basic horticultural knowledge and skill. The art is in styling the tree so that it looks like something much older than it may actually be. This is the distinction I believe Andy was making.

My point is this--if we take on the challenge of working on trees that are more than just little junipers and if we are willing to open ourselves to others and bring them into our world of bonsai then we will be promoting bonsai on a higher level than just juniper cuttings in a 4" pot with glued-on pebbles.

Craig Cowing
Zone 5b+

Over the years my definition of bonsai has changed. Bonsai do not have to convey age, something much older than it may actually be, that isn't a qualification. If Bonsai is an Art, any plant that conveys a sense of beauty within it's own culture qualifies as a bonsai to me.

The other day I saw a planting of mixed grasses in a beautiful stoneware pot on the deck of a client I am doing some landscape design work for. I sat and stared at it and it was.......bonsai, even though it was not even created as such. I wish I had a picture of it to show now.

I think the pictures in Kyuzo Murata's book Four Seasons Of Bonsai convey this idea.
Almost a third of the book is devoted to pictures of perennials, from lily of the valley to common sheeps sorrel, a plant most people would wipe out with a squirt of Roundup, planted in decorative pots.

The Art of bonsai must have a broader meaning for it to be a worldwide art. It's a cultural thing.
How do you style a fern to make it look older? You don't. You go out where the fern grows and
you observe it's unique growing conditions and then dig it up put it in a nice pot that harmonizes well with the plant and conveys a sense of beauty and give it growing conditions as close to those it came from. That's bonsai to me.

Go to the pines if you want to learn about the pine,
or to the bamboo if you want to learn about the bamboo.
And in doing so, you must leave your subjective preoccupation
with yourself. Otherwise you impose yourself on the object and do not learn.

Matsuo Basho
17th Century

Can I take a laptop with me to do all this studyin, this nature stuff really cramps my style for BonsaiTalk

Gary S. wrote:

>Over the years my definition of bonsai has changed. Bonsai do not have to convey age, something much older than it may actually be, that isn't a qualification. If Bonsai is an Art, any plant that conveys a sense of beauty within it's own culture qualifies as a bonsai to me.

>The other day I saw a planting of mixed grasses in a beautiful stoneware pot on the deck of a client I am doing some landscape design work for. I sat and stared at it and it was.......bonsai, even though it was not even created as such. I wish I had a picture of it to show now.



I guess I'm not in agreement. I certainly enjoy seeing plantings in a container such as those you describe, but for me I wouldn't call them bonsai. Accent plants, sure. Beautiful plants in their own right, certainly. Oh boy, now I've started something. I'd be interested in Andy's thoughts on this, or anyone else's. In terms of types of plants, where do you draw the line?

Also, I have understood thus far that the ocnveyance of a feeling of age and wisdom is the reason for styling a tree. If it isn't, why not just slap something in a pot and call it "art?" Why bother with all the styling and effort? Anyone who reads the IBC list will recall Jim Lewis' dilemma he posted a few days ago with the two different plants somebody slapped in an ugly pot and donated it to a Tai Chi center, calling it "bonsai." Is this art too, or just an uninformed attempt to mimic bonsai?

Craig Cowing
Zone 5b+