Several posts have recently made me re-think why I have a habit of stating my opinion when it's quite possible no one really cares what it is. After some real soul-searching a saying came to mind:

"A lie told with enough frequency can eventually become the truth in the absence of the facts".

Now I know that is someone's quote, although I believe I paraphrased somewhat. Still the message is unmistakable. If we do not address issues that we know are not correct with concise and informative reparte, we can blame ourselves when the real truth is lost. I believe it is becoming more common for us, as a whole, to expect someone else to "fight the battle". This is a mistake. Granted, by exposing yourself to argument you MAY bring about some misery to your own person, but does that excuse your silence for purposes of self-preservation? I think not. Not only can that philosophy give you mental anguish, it can have damaging effects on others who may not know any better.

Here is an example:

If someone was asking for advice about how and when to transplant a white pine, and someone said do it in mid-January, cut 75% of the roots off, and plant it in pure kanuma soil saturated daily with miracle-gro, don't you feel that information is woefully incorrect and potentially fatal to the bonsai? Now, if you read that and DIDN'T say something, is there any reason why the person seeking advice would NOT choose to follow the bad recommendations? You would be assuming that they know better. If you SAY/WRITE something you are removing the dangers of assumption and providing them with tangible information so they can reconsider their moves. I feel that is extremely important, and cannot abide with less.

Now obviously the example I gave is extreme. But I think it illustrates my point. I hope others see this as an unwritten rule about how to deal with different opinions.

A final quote:

" A coward dies a thousand deaths, a brave man only one".

Just a lucid thought in a lifetime of being confused,

John

__________________
John Dixon

Si vis pacem parabellum

Stay off the trails of others, that's where the booby-traps are.

John,

A fact I have come to know is that sometimes calling on bad advice or information is a lot more trouble than it is worth.

It is easier to let someone else fight the battle, as you say, simply because no one wants to be the bad guy or the target, whatever the case may be.

In the case you gave above, after correcting or asking for verification of the advice that was given, the giver would no doubt defend it and become angered that anyone would question it, a few others would speak up for and against the bad advice, some because they honestly believe what they are saying, some just to take sides, and some just to stick up for the underdog of the moment.

Next thing you know someone is complaining about rep points, the subject gets changed to the weather in Peru and then the thread gets closed. Then three other threads will get started covering different issues that came up on the first thread and everyone would speak about how they would have handled it (but somehow failed to at the start) and the poor person who asked for help shuts off his computer and puts the bonsai out to the curb.


I myself am going to grab another coffee,


Mr. Lonely

Will,

You are exactly right in everything you said, but I still say we (scratch that... I... everyone thinks for themself) have an obligation to stand up for what I feel is right FOR the benefit of others. Granted, it may muddy the waters, but that's life. People have to make choices, and some are very difficult. What is not acceptable is having a lack of choice. One person giving wrong information, and no one countering it, doesn't allow a choice, it's just a lack of options.

I'm sure that you, just as I, have had to "file thirteen" a lot of advice over the years. I just feel I was lucky enough to have good, talented, people with the fortitude to steer me the right way when I was lost.

I guess in your analogy, my point would be for the bonsai to hit the curb at least alive, rather than dead.

Thanks for taking the time to post. I got one PM from someone who is a little perturbed at me over this. I guess that means at least it was read. I'm not mad about it, shoot, that's the point.

Take care buddy,

John

Indeed John,

I would agree that if someone is giving blatantly bad advice it should be pointed out. However, often posts like these can be made very constructive, by pointing out what is incorrect, and enaging in further dialog so that everyone gets it. Unfortunately, there have been those less tactful instances where a discussion is engaged on a topic, and one individual so disagrees with a statement of another, that is not bad advice per say, but a difference of opinion, and confrontation ensues.
In that case, the PM is a far better tool.

Ralph,

Absolutely. You are saying exactly what needs to be said. My only caveat is that some viewer (not posting) who MAY be reading the discussion cannot benefit from the PM. All they know is what's on the forum. Now if name calling or other extra-curricular activities are the agenda, then by all means do it privately. The original topic, however, is already public and any further viable information should be addressed to any who wish to read it. I guess I just think it can become wrongly perceived as a one-on-one, when in fact there are many who are interested.

And you are absolutely correct that it can become heated. I'm just at a point where I consider that the status quo.

Oh well. Nice post Ralph. Thanks for your thoughts on the issue.

Warmest regards,

John

John, I think you are right. Incorrect advice should always be challenged, because the ripples in the pond are incalculable. Allowed to stand, the advice hangs there on the internet for anyone to come along and see. When joining this group, I must have read twenty old threads for advice on specific trees. Others no doubt do the same. And they take that information to their friends, or to their club, sharing the mistaken beliefs.

Having said that, I must admit that while being a very, very small fish here (one might almost say pre-fish), in my own "hobby" I am one of the top three in the world. I have spent ten years teaching, giving seminars, travelling to other workshops to help troubleshoot, etc. Along comes the internet, someone starts a yahoo group of the same interest, and suddenly I am challenging and being challenged by many other hobbiests. Most of them are willing to learn, and learn correctly. However, some are able to act as though they know when they really don't. At all. Period.

When the argument gets to a certain level, the less informed can no longer follow it, and they end up as you say, taking sides. For those still arguing, dearly held beliefs die hard. Personalities come into it, and that's where the learning stops.

However, in the end at least the wrong information was challenged. You can't just let it sit there, with the authority that the written word seems to carry. Perhaps the criteria for challenging it should be whether it is really a problem piece of information, or just another way of doing the same thing. Like the soil stratification discussion, as was pointed out both methods seem to work for people who know what they are doing otherwise. Therefore, it is less important to carry the day, because used properly either method will not cause disaster.

It is hard when there are strong personalities and strong opinions on a forum, inevitably someone gets their feelings hurt or leaves because it just isn't worth fighting over anymore. And that's a shame, because the information that all of you have given on this forum is worth all six bonsai books I own, and if you knew the hours and hours that I (among hundreds of others, no doubt) spent reading your posts and thinking about your responses you would know that it was all worth it.

Joanie

Joanie,

Very informative post from you. You have addressed this issue in a manner that I cannot even hope to attain.

You have provoked a question from me though....what "hobby" are you talking about?

Thanks for your reply, and I look forward to many more.

Warmest regards,

John

Wasn't that Goebbels?

'Nuf said.

Yep,

Hitler's propaganda minister. That's right. Actually it was, "A lie told often enough becomes the truth". Thanks for clearing that up. Sobering thought isn't it?


John

Nice for me, with a reluctance to step out of a structurally sound aircraft, to find another point of agreement with someone with someone who lacks that reluctance.

Actually, I had training in (emergency) jumping, but fortunately, never had to use it.