Art may be the ultimate goal in the bonasi endeavor but I don't really think about it too often. If someone where to ask me, I wouldn't call myself a bonsai artist. I'd say something like, I grow bonsai.

Bonsai training and growing is a combination of expessing nature through art, using pruning, grafting and growing techniques, and a good knowledge of horticulture to keep the trees healthy. All of these things are interdependent on one another and I wouldn't necessarily say one is more important than the the others.

I grow bonsai for the creative aspect of it. I have a need to do that for some odd reason and if I'm going to do it, why not with small trees in pots? If someone else gets a kick out of it that's cool but it certainly isn't my goal.

As for entering shows. Yeah, I'd do it if there were some close by, but I wouldn't pack them up in the van to drive hundreds of miles to a show and sleep in an overpriced hotel room and eat greasy restaurant food for the weekend. Just so my trees can be critiqued by a non bonsai person? You've got to be kidding! I can get plenty of that at home anyway. Of coarse, that's just the way I am. I wouldn't drive a hundred miles to see Elvis either. He's still alive you know.

Tony

Well I am only just starting my third year in bonsai so at this point I am certainly not an artist yet as I am still learning the theory behind bonsai. As of now as much as many will cringe at this bonsai is not my number one activity. I have several interests that I have been doing much longer than bonsai the main one being dressage. Even with dressage though I have competed in the past sucessfully at the moment that is not where my aspirations lie. I have people come to me constantly for help for both them and their horse. They wish to improve to compete but for me the joy is in the practice. I can get feed back any time by having a peer come over to watch me ride and look for weaknesses.

That is how I feel about bonsai too. For me my interests/obsessions are self fulfilling. Do I consider my self an artist ? In general yes, in bonsai no... not yet. I am sure I will be but that is because of the way I live. Art is created when you put your soul into what you do. Art is not art simply because it is displayed. It is how it is created.

Bonsaial1 said:

Why do you smell a rat??

What is so incomprehensible about someone just doing bonsai for their own personal enjoyment? One can do all the things you say and still not feel the need to shout from the rooftops about it.

Some people need to shout to the world about their achievments, some don't. I'm in the 'don't' category. Al, you are in the 'do' category, unless I'm mistaken. I have absolutely no problem with that. After all, if it wasn't for people showing bonsai, how would I know about it, and know what to aspire to?

Touching on Walter & Rene's discussion, there is more to being good at something than just trying hard and investing time. You have to be actually good at the thing you try to do, to be able to do it well. I could train as damn hard and as long as I liked but I'm not gonna run 100m in 10 seconds. It's just not possible. Slightly off-topic, but there is so much dissapointment and angst in society because people yearn for things that are just plain not possible. I see colleagues at work buying lottery tickets, actually expecting to win, and investing so much emotion in the subject that when surprise surprise they don't win, they are gutted for the whole day. What's the point?!?

The point is (for me anyway) I know what I'm good at, and what I'm so-so at. I'm happy with that. I can strive for better things, but at the same time keep a sense of realism.

I've waffled a bit, and typed out one of those 'scrolled off the screen posts' that I hate,, but I wanted you (Al) to understand my point. I know you don't agree with it, but perhaps you can understand it. Bonsai for you is explicitly social. For me it just isn't. It may be in the future, but not just yet. (yes I know I'm socialising by partaking of the bonsaitalk experience...)

BTW if anyone's confused my point is about someone just doing bonsai for their own personal enjoyment.

Regards,

TB

I can certainly see your point Al - but I think that this experience can be gained without "showing" your tree. I have the good fortune to be able to participate in a number of workshops which are available (if I drive for one or two hours each way) on a monthly basis from various Bonsai "masters" in the area. I, personally, see this as a much better use of the time spent - even with travel time.

I recognize that the need to do a Show is very much a part of the Bonsai community that exists today. The show is mainly a "display" that is attended by members from other clubs as well as the general public. It is my observation that attendance is dwindling. It seems to me there should be more to be gained than just overhearing some comments that might prove useful from the very few people who attend... I appreciate that the information that you received was very valuable - you got it from someone (THE JUDGE) whose judgement you valued - NOT the attendees of the Show.

Just out of curiousity - did YOU learn from the Pre-Show critique done by the other club members? Are they really honest? It seems like this could get a bit tense!

I try hard to introduce thought provoking threads. Sometimes I try hard to post threads that I know have no ending. This is disscusion, and sometimes disscusion has no ending. If the same things are talked about over a period of time, brick walls seem to vanish and points of view begin to align to the center.

What astounds me, is that for the most part people wish to remain on the fringe. I don't understand that. While I know that I have aspirations that are not felt by everyone, I would think that we could all admit that we want to create the best tree possible, with artistic merits that one would find beautiful.

Working in your backyard is fine.
Not showing your trees is fine.
Not driving to go to a workshop is fine.
Enjoying bonsai is fine.

The point of the thread is to introduce that being satisfied with craft is not what bonsai is all about. I have no problem with those that disagree with my way of thinking. I even recieved a PM that was afraid that I might take a post as a flame. I don't think there is any flaming that goes on here. Bonsai people are passionate about what they do and feel. I think that is alot of the reason why those sort of people are drawn to bonsai. It is an art that is easily started, with minimal tools, not a lot of expeirance is needed to produce some exceptable results, and it gives us an outlet to our creative impulses.

I just feel that Bonsai is about being creative, and taking a "backyard" approach to bonsai is not the way to increase ones technical skill at becoming better at the art. If you wish to improve, then you are more serious than you think. That is the "I smell a rat" part that I brought up in the beginning. I may be wrong, but I think everyone is here beacuse they want to do better bonsai, and see this as an outlet to more knowledge.

If you crave knowledge,
If you want to learn more,
If you would like to show your trees but don't have the confidence yet',
If you think that you are doing artistic bonsai,
then just say so, and don't hide behind the, " I just do it for myself and don't really care what others think", syndrome.

Food for thought, Bonsai-al

Treebeard wrote:


Treebeard, why did you write the caviat?
I re-read this about a dozen times to make sure I was reading it correctly. This is exactly what I am talking about. Why do some feel the need to back up everything they say with "I may in the future but not right now."

Or, "I may be an artist in the future, but for now I just grow them in my backyard for myself."

Anyone feel that bonsai promotes self confidence over a period of time? I may start that thread next.

Alicia said:


Do you feel that you will provide more soul at some later date?
Are you holding back your soul now, so that you can really make a charge later?

Do people really believe that the Renaissance artists put less soul in their work when they started out than when their work became famous. I do believe that talant can be taught, on certain things. Playing guitar is not one of them, Playing piano is sort of one of them, but writing music is not. I definatly think that good bonsai can be taught, sometimes the training can come at a great price.

Regards, Bonsai-al

I've probably already made my point and if anybody out there feels it has any merit they've probably already "gotten it". However....

All this emphasis on competition and having my trees "judged" and rated either by the standard of some judge or by comparison with the work of my peers is making me crazy! As well as the zeal others feel for me improving my artistry through subjecting my work to the judgement of others. Which, if I don't do I'm not really carrying my share of the self-imposed burden of being a bonsai artist.

For me, bonsai represents an area in my life of relief from the frenzied competition of our beloved free-market economy, an opportunity to commune with nature and eternity, an island of sanity and serenity in the hyper-frenetic society that I live in. I want Bonsai to be different from the competitive world that I spend most of my time in, not an extension of it. I want to do good bonsai, not because I want to beat my neighbor at the next bonsai show, or even because I want to exceed my last "Personal Best", but because I enjoy the beauty I create.

I think there are alot of people who are drawn to do bonsai for reasons very unlike the values that drive modern commercial society. I don't think that the values that are being associated with "Bonsai Artistry", which appear to me to be an extension of "striving for excellence", "Product Improvement", the Virtue of Competition" have alot of appeal to these people. I think they are drawn to such things as "quiet contemplation", the personal experience of eternity as represented in ancient trees and the personal experience of being close to nature and natural processes.

Maybe this puts me on the fringe of the "true" bonsai community, but that's OK. I've spent alot of my life being "uncool".

Respectfully, Fred

This thread has been thought provoking. I don't think it's accurate to say that taking a "backyard approach" keeps one from increasing their technical skill. I believe that a monk atop the highest mountain living in seclusion, could keep improving his technical skills. It's not about who you see in bonsai social settings, conventions that you go to, or if you have been fortunate enough to have met a bonsai master. Obviously the more access one has to numbers of people who are experienced in bonsai, the more information will be filed into your head. Just because the information is accessible, doesn't mean the person will know what to do with it. Everyone is different with the way they look at things or respond to things, so thinking of someone only being able to increase their bonsai knowledge through interactions with others, is a bit short sighted. In fact, usually a lot of time is lost on trivial BS-ing whenever a large group of people get together for anything - whether it be for a bonsai function or a conference meeting.

I'm not trying to be pessimistic about clubs, shows, or conventions...I'm just giving another point of view.

Marsha

I guess I have not made my point clear. There are no sides to choose, there is no agenda that I am trying to force into service here. I do bonsai in my backyard too. All I am saying is there are faster tracks and slower tracks. If one wants to take the slower train thats fine with me, and I see your point.

For me I see the competition aspect of bonsai, the club aspect of bonsai, the workshop aspect, and the forum as faster ways to reach a like meeting place. I guess everyone wants to do bonsai at their own pace, thats cool too.

I guess I read the posts of some here, and then read the posts on Freds "starting anew' thread, and all those that shun social bonsai as not necessary, sure do promote it on the other thread.
Almost sounds like different people.
More food, Bonsai-al

Al,

Come on Al....your an extrovert and like to stir things up, lets face facts.

Al..........really

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