Walter, I think you are on the right track

I'm guilty of being a one-tree demonstration hater. I don't mind watching some specific techniques or even a long lecture about a topic like collecting or grafting or something, but the instant bonsai thing holds little interest for me. I try really hard, but I just can't pay attention to stuff like that.

As an example, I missed a good part of the JAL 2001 demonstration by Kimura because I took a break to see the show (Taikan-ten) and found that so much more interesting.

Regards,

Matt

Walter,
I can't speak with any knowledge of your local shows/conventions but can sympathize with your attendance problems. It is getting to be a problem with all conventions anymore. Perhaps one of the reasons ( at least in the US) is the number of choices each year. Your average bonsai enthusiast just has to chose between which ones to attend and where he'll spend his ( familys) hard-earned dollar and vacation days. It's tough some times and getting tougher!
I do not have any idea about your programming, but, perhaps they suffer from what I keep seeing more and more in the US conventions....that of "same-old-same-old". The same guys doing the same demos on the same Ponderosa pines and RM Junipers at every convention! ( ditto on workshops). As I looked through convention/symposium schedules last year and this I could go see the guy several times in one season, and rarely do I see a convention speaker list with people I haven't already seen two or three times in the last couple years. I really hate it when a teacher gets a reputation for working on one type of tree and then that's all you ever see him work on every time you see him!
One more thought....how was the vending area. Without vending...no one will go!
Just some thoughts on that.

I do like the critique ideas, especially of symposium masterpiece exhibit trees.I think if a person would get into the 4 or 5 critiques of the same trees by each speaker you can certainly learn a lot.

Demos and workshops
Well I certainly can't agree with Andys comments about their value, "Bonsai masterbation", newly styled pieces of junk, and worthless workshops.
Over the last 26 years I've sure been to a lot of conventions and love watching demos, new techniques and styling ideas every single time. I wish I could get to more of them at conventions. I can't believe how many ideas/techniques I've picked up over the years and implimented on my own at a later date.
People get the wrong ideas about demos where a rougher stock is turned into a "bonsai start" ( I won't say"finished" bonsai) in a few hours. It is to give you IDEAS ! and points to refer to in your own work, ....at HOME! Not many bonsai people sit down every day and complete styling a tree of some type, but I'll bet that as years go by on their trees they see many ideas being adapted to their trees. Where did they get those ideas/techniques?... from masters demos at conventions!
Now, if we just got to see a broader band of artists displaying them!

Workshops
I don't take them anymore but often wish I could. I see some great stock ( and, unfortunately ,sometimes half-dead crap) used in some great workshops . If a person uses some good judgement in picking workshops he'll take and with whom he can walk out with a great tree, some partial/basic styling pointing in the right direction, and a smile on his face. I've seen some great stock go home from workshops. But, again as with demos, all you learn isn't dumped into that one tree. It is slowly dumped into all your trees as years go by. Not only that, but in a workshop situation you learn something from everyones tree being worked on in that room.

Matt says he found the show at Taikan-ten to be much more interesting than Mr. Kimura's demo. Well, I've seen Mr. Kimura demo several times now since I first saw him at BCI Memphis in 92(I think it was?) and wish I could watch every single minute.....then observe the show later. It isn't going anywhere for a while! Again, with watching Mr. Kimura demo ( granted translations and wiring can get s...l...o...w) how many ideas do you find yourself trying years down the road as techniques and knowledge you gleened years before come stumbling back through your head.
I personally, feel every convention should have certain things and four of them are critiques, demos ( either single or group or several at the same time in other rooms), workshops with great ESTABLISHED material and a masterpiece display.

Oh!...and one more 5th thing that no one will attend without it....

A vending area!
Regards,
Dale

As Dale's example shows, some people are extremely interested in demos and workshops.
However, I think that the majority of people aren't.
A convention should focus on catering to the larger crowd first and foremost. Promoting the art and hobby by entertaining and educating.

I would compare it to a science fair or popular science, where there is no time and energy spent on demonstrating the mathematical formula of n-dimensional space distorted in the vicinity of a black hole. Only a few people would be masochistic enough to sit through such a torture no matter how interesting it would be to the specialized crowd.

Attila

I like the various ideas presented here enough so that I have alerted the folks that run our local (MidAtlantic) convention to them.

Perhaps an adjunct to the show (included in vendor area admission price) would be a "welcome to bonsai" series of presentations and workshops put on by members of the participating clubs. This would seem to be a good way of spreading the joy of the hobby, and getting folks started with something other than the dreaded "mallsai".

I find that I learn from all exposures to bonsai -- even talking to novices (off the street) at our annual club exhibit. Certainly some presentations and material lend to more concentrated learning but just being exposed to good material and good teachers is enuf for me.

I most definitely think you're on to something Walter.

Personally I think that multiple demos covering various styling practices would be most useful. I find that I think I know how to interpret the books until I try to execute various styling processes and find I often come up short. Seeing someone of skill actually wiring difficult branches, trunk chopping, choosing and reducing branches, pulling roots down, pinching, carving, thread grafting, etc., etc., is what I would like.

If several different trees, needing various processes were to be worked on over a suitable time period by one or more experienced practitioners, I'd be very interested. The availability of videos of the sessions would be great for people to catch up on those missed if some were done simultaneously.

Bonsai being an on going process, is more than just the initial styling of a ground/box grown, nursery or collected pre bonsai. What comes after that initial development process is what I'm interested in. The finer points of finishing you could say. Pot selection with several trees catered for, itself could be a full workshop topic. Struth, the mind boggles at the possibilities.
See you in Canberra Walter.
Bern

Attilla said:
"As Dale's example shows, some people are extremely interested in demos and workshops.
However, I think that the majority of people aren't.
A convention should focus on catering to the larger crowd first and foremost. Promoting the art and hobby by entertaining and educating."

How did you get the idea that the MAJORITY aren't interested in demos and workshops from this short thread? and that they aren't entertaining and educating? Was it because Andy doesn't see their value ? Just curious?
Conventions DO cater to the majority, that's why we see high paid speakers brought in to do demos on great stock , several workshops which often fill up early if the show is promoted well, a vendor area with more vendor requests than space available ( and people are in there every chance they get when they aren't busy).
In my opinion one of the biggest things to effect registration, which I sort of got into above, is the number of conventions/symposiums each year that a basically small crowd ( bonsaists) have to decide about which one their bucks will go to. This will certainly be given the test in 2005 when the World Bonsai Friendship Federation convention is held in Washington DC and there will be no seperate BCI, ABS, BSF conventions that season. Instead ABS/BCI will be joining in to some extent. With fewer major choices for convention money that year I'm betting the attendance will be very large albeit overall expensive.

Bart's ideas about some "beginner type" instruction has merit and I've seen similar things before but moreso at LOCAL club shows where such things can easily be facilitated. ( Bart, it might be tough to get association people to volunteer to do things like this at a convention if it means them missing something they paid to register for going on at the same time) and I THINK most people who register for a convention are past the "mallsai" stage. It would take quite a bit of local advertising to get "interested public" there , heck it is tough to get convention promoters to LOCALLY advertise to get ANYONE there!
Just some more thoughts.
Dale

How does one tell if a workshop has good material or poor material for that particular workshop? I have never been to a convention workshop, but have heard some folks say that the material at a show sometimes leaves something to be desired. Is this just a roll of the dice thing?

Dale,

This short thread is not where my impression comes from (smiles and giggles...),
I have pretty much attended every bonsai event in the Los Angeles area and sometimes north of it in the last decade. Usually these event last a few days on weekends (Fri - Sun) and I tend to go 2 days out of 3. It wasn't hard to notice at first sight the scarcity of people sitting through these demos (compared to the total crowd walking around in the area). It was at these times that it occured to me that there must be better ways to make the event more exciting.

In contrast, when I attended critiques, presentations, and exhibition tours, it was hard to find a good place to sit due to the number of people watching. These were lively, interactive, entertaining.

Belive me, I love to learn new things about bonsai as much as you do.

But this is just my personal experience and my conclusion drawn from it. There is a lot of room for improvement.

Best regards,
Attila

Ralph:

It's often mostly a crapshoot. One fellow I know who led a workshop at a major convention, said that when he saw the material, he wanted to do a workshop on air-layering!

Sometimes, as in the upcoming BSF show, they show some photos of the workshop on the show web site. At other times, when the show announces who is providing the trees, you can go to that person and get a pretty good idea of what kind of material would sell for within the workshop budget.

With some shows, you learn from experience that the show buys their trees well enough in advance that you can expect them to have had some pruning and clipping to help them develop as bonsai. Or you learn that, in the case of tropicals at non-tropical shows, they have arranged for top growers to do this. (Ill give MidAtlantic a big Hooray, here!)

It would never hurt to give the organisation's contact person a call and ask.