In the long thread, It was brought up to talk about correcting roots that have become rootbound and look awful in the nursery can.

These are some musings by Al Keppler, and are written with that in mind. Damn, I hate caveats.

There are lots of reasons why nursery stock gets to looking bad. Most of the reasons are just due to neglect and not enough help around the nursery. Plants that don't get repotted up to the next size can will start to show the effects of being rootbound by the end of that season in prolific locales.

The roots of the neglected plant wrap around the can and become a tangled mess. At the end of the first season, this may not be all that bad: if the plant goes on to become neglected, the roots grow in thickness, take up most of the soil, the soil gets washed out of the pot. The roots fatten up even more, pushing the plant further out of the container, till the whole plant looks like it has this huge claw grasping the soil. UGLY!

What can be done about it?
Well, there are as many answers to this as there are about making soil. Most of the techniques, (and these are learned techniques) are mastered with practice. Like the artistry it takes to develop the trunk and branches, so does the artist have to dig deep into his bag of bonsai tricks to help develop healthy roots and interesting looking nebari.

Re-read that again! Notice I said: Healthy roots and interesting looking nebari.

What I mean here is; 'I' think the roots have to be in peak health, and the nebari has to be varied and interesting looking. Read: Look Old.

In my post 'OK let's talk about roots' No one ever answered the question about the root versus nebari question. Just how perfect do roots have to look? We know that nebari has to look perfect or the image we are trying to achieve will be lost.

The techniques!
Practise, this is what makes a good bonsai artist better. When a learning bonsai person reads and study's the books, they get some factual training that goes in the brain somewhere. But getting the hands dirty is the only way to get the practical knoweledge necessary to achieve working a poor root ball into an acceptable one. Will you achieve it on your first try? Probably not. Will you achieve it on your second, maybe, but more likely on your 20th.

How much does talant have to do with it? I think it has alot to do with it. Techniques are something that are learned, but everyone applies them different. Gaining the nerve to cut a 1/4 inch root back to within 2" of the trunk, is not something everyone is capable of doing and keeping the plant alive. Knowing just how the plant will respond to this kind of treatment comes with years in the craft and gaining knowledge of the plants that you work with.

There are no hard and fast rules to correcting roots. Correcting roots is not that much different then working on the top of the tree. The roots down below should mimmick whats going on above ground. Nice ramification is not only healthy on the trees branches, it should also be a part of the plants root system. This is only accomplished with diligent pruning techniques to the roots over a period of a few years in the most severe cases.

Flap cutting, inarch grafting, thread grafting, are all good ways to correct roots. These techniques will help to make good nebari great. In the case of the 'claw' type roots, where the plant looks like its elevated on stilts and there is daylight shining thru the root system, then some techniques are just not going to work short of air layering the tree right off the ugly roots.

Sometimes a plant is so bad that no techniques will work to make the plant attractive. This is where bonsai artistry and expierance will have to show the way. Sometimes a dicision has to be made. What is best for ME. Give the plant away, donate it to a club raffle, sell it at a club function, who knows. What you think may be ugly will send the heart a reeling to some new bonsai guy. The plant was not bad, it just had become stale to you due to your growing bonsai expertise. You have realized that this plant is not worth fiddling with, and it would be better to concentrate on procuring stock with better attributes.

One last note... Roots are subject to the most drastic rigors one could put them thru. Roots were not developed on a plant to be confined in a pot. There are many conditions that make a list of acceptable root developing techniques hard to put down to paper. Soil management is a biggy, as well as proper watering techniques. A person with little expierance culd ruin a plant with the best roots possible in just one growing season. We have all seen the picture essays in Bonsai Today that show the Japanese Master working on a 300-year-old tree, and the tree ends up looking worse then before he started. This can happen in bonsai too. I am not just talkin about the roots here either, I've seen this happen with the top of the tree too.

Root rot can ruin the best roots very fast. Soil and water management are probably the two best things the newbie bonsai artist should learn. It's no wonder they start with these exact things in Japan when undergoing the bonsai apprenticeship. You will water and water till you think you have emptied the whole Sea of Japan.

Regards, Itchy

Al,

I'll take a stab at answering the root/nebari question from my perspective - I think we may be in agreement anyway, healthy roots and interesting looking nebari.

All I want the roots themselves to do, is perform the functions of water and nutrient take up efficiently. The more fibrous roots supporting root hairs the better. Below the soil line, I don't care what the roots look like - I care what they are doing and how well. Your thoughts on soils and watering are spot on the mark in my opinion. That is, you need to give the roots the correct conditions to flourish and grow within very limited confines once in a pot. You also need to have the working roots (as opposed to supporting roots) start as close to the trunk and nebari as possible, giving the tree the maximum volume for water uptake.

Of course, getting there is the problem. You can't just whack off all the woody roots on a nursery tree and hope for new fibrous roots to appear without seriously risking the tree's chances of survival.

Fish.

Al, I answered your root versus nebari question on the other post. Kind of in a round about way though. Plus I know that you know the answer. You're just trying to put some life in the old forum! That's why I put a healthy root system at the top of my list. And nebari at the bottom of the list. What I mean by healthy root system is one that can keep the tree healthy through the tough treatment of bonsai training. Nebari, on the other hand are about looks and should fit in with the overall design of the tree. They are only a conduit from the roots below to the foliage above. Although very close in proximity to each other, I tend to separate the two for design purpose. Roots are functional. Good nebari looks cool, artsy and all that stuff. It's possible to have excellent nebari and a poor root system or an excellent root system and butt ugly nebari. Either one will hinder you from making a great bonsai.

Tony

PS: great to have you aboard Mr. Fishy.

Those of us that understand that a healthy fibrous root system that is close to the nebari will improve the ability to keep a tree healthy in a small and shallow container, or the pot of the artest choosing. Will eventually move away from "caned nursery stock" for all of the reasons that Al has mentioned above.

The problem does not stop there. Just this last weekend I was in a conversation with a California field grower who was telling me that creating a good root system in the ground was too labor intensive and could not be done, or that he would not do it.

There is also the fact that when you do cut a tree's root system hard enough to create correct roots you do stand the chance of loosing it.

Here is another fact, younger material will take harsh cutting of the roots and rebound faster and better than older material.

All of this leads one to the general statement "nothing replaces good bonsai techniques applied over the entire life of a tree"

Another thought, if you buy three trees for $33.00 and in correcting bad roots two of them die, this makes the cost of the serviving tree $99.00

Landscape nursery stock will always be an inticement to the new bonsai artest because of price and convenience. Hopefully they will grow and move on to more succesful material.

Another problem that I find with even experianced bonsiasts. Fear of loosing a tree will prevent them from applying good techniques to a root system. I don't think that you do your tree any good by leaving old soil and long roots in a mass and then stuffing it into a bonsai pot and packing good bonsai soil around the root ball. Although I feel that this is incorrect I see it being done with caned nursery stock all to often.

As bonsai artests we should care about the entire tree from the smallest rootlet to the bud at the tip of the tree. For me I will apply all of the techniques that I know as often as is necessary to keep the tree that I am growing on the track that I have chosen for it.

Scratchy

Tony - good to be here!

Glenn,

I'm interested in your thoughts about nursery stock and the treatment of roots. Whilst I agree with your statement that it would be better to use good bonsai techniques on a tree for its entire life - if we were to limit ourselves to doing that we would only have two choices:

1. Growing bonsai from seed / cutting/ airlayering (relatively time consuming)
2. Buying pre-trained stock from a bonsai nursery like yours ( more expensive)

Yamadori would be out and nursery stock would also be out. These are both viable sources of trees.

An example - at the moment I'm training a privet. It was dug last year and stuffed into a washtub. This year I've put it into an oversize bonsai pot to get a flatter rootball. However, it was collected from solid clay, so the only way that I can proceed is to gradually build new roots and replace the clay over a period of 3-4 years. Should I not bother and go and buy a nice expensive piece of potensai from you instead?

I'm not saying that bonsai and pre-bonsai nurseries don't have their place, but they should be just part of the bigger picture. How would I be able to learn how to build a new healthy rootball if all I did was purchase stock from bonsai nurseries?

Also, if I did buy 3 £ 33 pines and learnt from them how tolerant they were to root reduction, even if I did loose 2, surely the experience would stand me in good stead when I purchased the £ 1000 pine from a bonsai nursery? If I hadn't, I'll bet the £ 1000 tree would be dead within a couple of years.

I appreciate that you have an obvious interest in this; I just think that other sources of material are useful for learning purposes and for getting larger trees at minimal cost.

Respectfully,

Fish.

I am wondering why I feel so misunderstood. I must think with only the left side of my brain or something. Have I not said that newbies would still be drawn to nursery stock? Have I not also said that bonsai artests would not apply proper bonsai techniques to there trees for fear of loosing the tree.
Mr. Fish you will do what you feel is correct for your tree and that is ok for you. If your privit were mine it would have been washed out and the roots corrected on the first day and I would already know if the tree was going to be succesful or not. I have no trouble making a large privit into a "cutting" to get good root's. This material just wants to be bonsai so I am betting that you will have good luck with it.
I am not saying that a person should not work with nursery stock. I am saying that if you do you should apply correct techniques to that stock.
I am not saying that I have the only sorce for bonsai material. I would like to think that material that I grow would give an artest the advantage of a good foundation.
Let me make my point this way. At some time Fish wants to be rid of the clay that is around the root's of his privit. He says slowly reduce the clay and root ball over three to four years. How many repottings 2 or 3 or 4. I would do the work at the first potting taking advantage of the energy that was in the tree from being in the ground. I would pot one time from the ground to the growing container with only good bonsai soil that would encourage hair roots from the base of the nebari. Then the tree would not have to be disturbed until I was ready to repot into a bonsai container. This sounds frightning but the rewards totally out weigh the losses. To do this with confidence the artest must understand after care. I guess that I will have to show pictures of work on nursery stock to get folks to really understand.
Mr. Fish please do not be upset with me I realy do believe in what I am doing and I apply the techniques that I teach to thousands of trees.

Glenn

Glenn, Part of the reason why you feel so misunderstood is because you have tunnel vision. On this forum you are missing the big picture, Bonsai

Bonsai is not about how many cuttings were put in the ground last month, nor is about 5 pickup loads of oak seeds. Bonsai is about making something from less than perfect. Bonsai is about the feeling you get when you look at a tree that makes you feel that nature and art have become one.

Polishing a trunk, or fine detail wiring. Pinched buds that push so hard that the foliage looks like velour. These are things that bonsai are. Not alot of people get stimulated by the technical side of the craft.

I post some pieces about how I make my stands, it is interesting to me. And, I get much enjoyment from the wood working expierance, it is challanging to me. But, most people are probably more interested with the final outcome, the finished stand. Most people can relate to the look and feel of the wood, the countless coats of finish and the final coat of wax. The beauty of the woodwork and the tightness of the joinery. These things have shown up in the final piece, and are something to be cherished by folks. This is art, and most people find beauty in art.

While what you do is art in it's own right, it would be much better appreciated by people when viewed on a beautiful tree. A masterpiece tree that will fill the heart with joy.

Has anyone wondered why they have the technical awards for the Oscars in the daytime and not televised, Boring

They do have their own ceremony, but it is with people from their group that care and respect what they do. The prime time crowd would just turn the channel if they had a show about best person to do a wardrobe change in less then a minute. WOW! a new reality show is born!

I may be wrong here, but I'll bet some people here on the forum would like to see you do a step by step of making one of your trees into a great bonsai. One that would look like a bonsai and have the feeling that shouts bonsai. Take us from the roots that have been developed in the ground and then into a bonsai pot. then trim and prune the tree into bonsai or show where you think the tree will be in 4 or 5 years. Hopefully it would be sooner.

Most people are just not as passionate about the trees foundation as you are. Most people want a tree that looks like bonsai, get it there fast, and not spend next weeks grocery money to do it. You can't blame people for that. What people want to know is how to get where you are with the foundation, on a great trunk and branches for 50.00. If someone doesn't agree with you, you can't say that they are wrong or that they don't have a clue about growing. Trust me, they will find a way despite what you have to say.

Beautiful trees, thats bonsai...

Al, if I may, I will take part of your above question to Glenn in a slightly different direction.

When some people try something they very often have a control group. It would be interesting to see a group of nursery trees all similar. Part of the group would be developed for 2-3 years with no 'major' regard to the roots, only thought of the Nebari. The second group would receive 'major' attention to the roots. After the period of time (even four years) the groups would be compared. It would be good to see the trees in each group and IF one group as a whole was better than the other for Bonsai Development.

Glenn if you and your Boss did such a test, and there are pictures, it would be nice if you could share them with us. To my eyes there is no question that the trees you are growing have some of the best roots I seen. I still do not have the knowledge that would tell me what a tree grown over a similar time frame in the same geographic area without the degree of detail to the roots would look like.

just my thoughts
Jay

Jay; My boss and I pay equal attention to all of the aspects of the tree. The reason that rootage has become so contincious is because there are some among us who are expert at bonsai who try to go against all of the japanese teachings and say that anything under the soil level does not matter. Now If they want to believe this for themselves, Ok! But to say it publicly is to harm all who are trying to learn the correct way to do bonsai.
I do not have all of the answers to Bonsai, but I will stand up for the ones that I have proven to myself to be correct.

Glenn

Glenn, Hi, that is not the answer to the question....My boss and I pay equal attention to all of the aspects of the tree.

I have no doubt that you pay attention to all aspects of your trees, but, your expertise is in root development, and my question was just on whether a study was every done on the differences between trees developed with roots as a high priority or those developed with roots as an after thought!

No biggy if there is no answer to this question, just my thoughts.

Jay