Interesting post, Jim - both the point about Kimura's workshop techniques and the point about his non-driftwood creations are well taken. I was looking through some old issues of International Bonsai last night, and saw therein a whole series of pictures and articles about Kimura's creations, few of which involved the sort of extravagent deadwood with which his name seems to have become associated, at least in this country. And they were absolutely gorgeous, and many of them very subtle. Certainly the work of a master.

That said, I'll take issue with one of your remarks:

Kimura's medium happens to be evergreens and conifers. To compare him to Walter and pass any kind of value judgement is pointless, and comparing apples with bananas.

I don't think anyone was saying that Walter Pall is "better" than Kimura - as you point out, that is a meaningless comparison. In fact the only two mentions of Walter in this thread were my remark that

It's just totally different than what Walter Pall does - and I guess I find myself drawn to more pastoral subject matter, for better or for worse.

and Al's comment about Walter's opinion on Kimura's driftwood work. Sure they're apples and bananas, but that doesn't mean it's senseles to say that I find myself drawn to apples rather than bananas because to me they taste better. One can't say that bonsai is better than suiseki, but I sure can say that I find myself more interested in bonsai than in suiseki.

Best regards,
Old Mister

I was not intimating that a direct comparison between the two was being made. I recognize that. One could substitute any major bonisaist for Walter, he had happened to be mentioned- so was "in the conversation".

Each man must be judged on his own merits. Accepted is probably the better term. I was more referring to a judgement on the two choices of imagery- peaceful twiggy tree in the meadow vs. windblown swirling deadwood juniper...

It's very easy for folks to dismiss this whole part of the issue with a contemptuous huff- since Kimura's work tends to such abstraction it can't possibly be bonsai... (or any one of a dozen other "judgements")

I've also been told that bonsai is supposed to be "peaceful" or "harmonious". Never saw that in the kanji for bonsai. tree + pot. I contend that bonsai is about artistry; as long as it has the two physical elements and implies something of the sensory one, it fits the intent of the definition.

"One can't say that bonsai is better than suiseki, but I sure can say that I find myself more interested in bonsai than in suiseki."

Sure you can ;^)>

Jim

I re-read every post on this thread, and all the opinions were personal taste issues. They either liked it or could do without it. I'm just wondering where it was mentioned that Kimura was not thought to be a Master, or could not design beautiful trees. I don't think I said that Kimura's demo stuff was tasteless. I just said that his name has come up in association with carved up demo trees. I have seen some very innovative work that he has done. The mountain he built out of kurama stones in Bonsai Today, with the small junipers on it. Also, the flat stone set at a 45 degree angle with the forest planted vertically on it was marvelous. I don't think anyone could deny that Kimura is a master, maybe more than a master if that is possible.

I don't have to be a master to have an opinion on his work. I certainly don't have to prove myself to have an opinion. Much less to my dog. Whats up with that? It's just an opinion. This is a discussion forum, composed of 95% opinion, nothing more, nothing less.

Good greif, Jim, what's all the huff about? You can call him master if you want to. Nobody said you couldn't. My opinions are my own, thats all. I just don't inspire to create trees like this. Quit preaching to me!

Tony

I wasn't preaching, I WAS discussing. I was never in anything resembling a huff, well not until now anyway. Last I knew intelligent discussion involved challenging, answering points, sometimes clarifying previous statments, perhaps even bringing up other thoughts for discussion and so on. Pretty friggin boring conversation other wise... "me too"..."Ï agree"..."Hey, my juniper is brown, is it dead?"

I merely responded to points such as in the initial post:

What do you think? Master or Fanatic?

Sounds like a questioning of Mastery to me, as was Tony's comment:

"I leave it to others to call him master but he is certainly good at what he does. "

Never said anyone couldn't have an opinion either.

And my point was not to challenge people to prove themselves but to perhaps encourage then to gain an appreciation for the difficulties of teaching/demonstrating- a significant quality in a master - even if it is doing a demo for your dog... ;^) there's your smiley.

I guess I have to stick to typing monosyllables and noncomittal grunts in the future...

Interesting thread. A lot of people dismiss the abstract art of Jackson Pollack as over the top. What they don't know is that he could also paint realism as well. In my humble opinion, a great artist is one who can work in the classic styles and has a recognizable style of his own. I've read articles about Kimura's work with azalea's that show his versatility. If we use the amount of discussion and range of opinion as an indicator, I think it safe to say that at the very least, Kimura makes you think about the art of bonsai. We need people like Kimura to keep us thinking.

Jim: You will find that it is ok to have an openion here as long as it belongs to someone else.

To those of you who are trying to question Kimuras abilitys, tallents, standing in the world bonsai comunity or reputation. You look like someone who would stand in the surf at the ocean and try to convince bathers that the water was not salty.

Kimura has already recieved the approvel of so many of the worlds top masters that none of our openions carry weight.

And if you are going to argue the point, you had better have some project, tree, book or photograph. Possibly a vidio tape of the workshop that you did for your dog, that shows your conception of bonsai and the techniques you use to acheve that concept.

I have to say that I agree with you Jim
sincerely

Rip said: And if you are going to argue the point, you had better have some project, tree, book or photograph. Possibly a vidio tape of the workshop that you did for your dog, that shows your conception of bonsai and the techniques you use to acheve that concept.

Who was arguing?
Since when do you have to be better than the artist to give criticism?

BTW, Isn't it ironic that the previous poster would mention Jackson Pollack. I think we had a disscusion about him in the nursery. Small world. Makes you think that everyone has a kernal of information to share.

ouch.

OK, the topic was if you thought he was a master of dead wood or a fanatic at it.

where in the question did it say do you think he is a master or not?

I think he is a master at a fanatical level when it comes to doing deadwood.

He is awsome at the techniques and is more innovative than any other artist i have seen (like pollack).

I think that "Sometimes" he goes overboard, but as one other said, who am I to say what is overboard or not in the grand community of Bonsai? It is my opinion, and that is what this discussion is about.
What do you think. that is what I was asking.

so , back on target...or we can drop it before we get into knife throwing and name calling...

Groan: Do try to get used to this as sometimes these threads will take on a life of there own.

Al said "Who was arguing?
Since when do you have to be better than the artist to give criticism?"

Al you don't have to know more than the artest to have an openion. But if you are going to be bold enough to critique the artists work you had better know as much as the artest or more. If you don't you stand the chance of looking very foolish.

Oh! Al, you argue constantly, you love it, and can't keep from it.

Your Pal!