First off I will now expect you to show just how it is that Al treats anyone with contempt. Since I don't actually see your point , because it really looks like all you are doing is spouting off with God will see it my way later, how am I undermining you.

Did you actually read Als comments on the first page, there was NO do it this way or you suck words there. Garbage hmm, well one mans trash you know.

These are Als words - "On the contrary, this idea just gives those willing to purchase desirable stock a significant advantage over those wishing to style bonsai from undesirable common nursery stock. Where is the problem here, by the way there is no mention of price here.

Al again - "I firmly believe that a bonsai artist will have many bonsai in all phases of construction from nursery stock to collected stock. Somewhere in that mix will be the odd assortment of purchased semi finished trees.

Now as to the true garbage -



And if you just have peace in your heart everything will be ok, No Bullying is when you actually force someone to do something, if you are giving an opinion nobody has to follow your lead. When a newbie argues a point that goes againt experiance and holds to that attitude because they havent taken the steps and work, it's another word ( that I won't use so I am not percieved as undermining your arguement or be percieved as calling you that word, again I am NOT) .



"The problem is too many forget all too quick where they have come from." No the problem is all too many do not respect the work and dedication that went into becoming the talent. To tell the truth if I am given the disrespect that a Walter Pall gets you'd probably call me another "A" word not the arrogant one that gets tossed about so easily, I think he handles that crap pretty well, I can be much worse. Be willing to bet that ANY name talent you can come up with worked on junk at one time or another, I believe even Al has. Sooner or later you look at a stick in the pot and want more, and realize there is a Next step you have to take.


I take that back, you don't have to take the next steps, and in 15 to 30 years after I have "finished bonsai" you will be seeing your mistakes on maybe a good bonsai.

People such as AK, Walter, Ron Martin, John Vons Gardens, RockM, even Will Heath all participate(d) here and other places for the most part to help others elevate thier skills, by thinking and learning, which advances OUR hobby, and for some a profession. Bonsai isn't a lets cut some off then see what I should do next, it's actually a thinking mans game, although there are some clip and grow plants that get used for bonsi.

anttal, For someone that has two and a half years in bonsai, just two growing seasons, you are quite opinionated. Sometimes after a large feeding it is good to digest. Such is the same here. Al (as usual )has given us a lot to chew on, so digest it. It may give you gas, but then this to will pass.

I'm a bit confused. You say you don't want to be undermined. However, with remarks like these you are doing it to yourself. A bit of a conundrum :



You made the original claim. You need to back it up. You have made a serious accusation



When the time comes to be judged, You need to be judged first by your peers before even considering being judged by a professional, master if you like. If you bristle at the exchange of thoughts and ideas here. You will have an extremely hard time if and when a master critiques you. It's a sobering experience, been there done that as has my 10 year old daughter. See the picture below as she gets critqued, no warm and fuzzy comments here, it was no holds barred from Colin Lewis and 10 very experienced adults. The look on her face should convey what most of us feel when we mere, as you put it, mortals are confronted with reality.

So as a good student of bonsai, listen, absorb, digest, then put your theories into practice. You will then after time have an informed opinion

Attached Images

jsw_p5220043.jpg (62.3 KB, 60 views)

Hi, remember this is about trees. I for one am vey impressed with the materia that Anttal has posted and about the detailed way he has documented the work he has done. With the passion exressed, the good eye and the drive shownI believe great things are on the horizon. John

I have no comments to make one way or the other. Mr. anttal63 is entitled to an opinion. I am a very patient man. I will wait patiently for his work to unfold. When it does I will be honest and direct, the way I have always been.

Cheers, Al

Sorry Ash if I smashed a nerve. My answer had to do with the quote. In fact this thread has everything to do with affluency. I didn't write this with newbies in mind. I wrote this with people like you in mind. A way to get a leg up. A way to get something worthy of half a lifetimes working with. Something to pass on to a collection or to loved ones that catch the bug. This has nothing to do with where you are in bonsai. This has to do with putting oneself into a place that can't be gotton except but to spend the money. It's all about the money. Always has been and always will be. This message goes out to any endeavor we do whether collecting coins or collecting baseball cards. I always looked up to the guys that could get their coins graded by a professional company and see the coins come back from the appraiser in the hermetically sealed cases. The same with sports cards. I had my coins in foldover cardboard holders and plastic sleeves. I had to argue about the grade because I couldn't afford to have it done professionally for me.

There will always be the have's and the have nots. I envey every damn guy that walks into a bonsai auction with a wallet so fat he can't sit down. I always place the starting bid. I move steadily to about 2 or 3 hundred dollars and then fade away like a sunset in Florida during Spring Break.

For the life of me I can not understand how someone could argue in favor of less? Argue for medocrity. I can understand if someone does not have the resources to buy what they wish, but why argue in favor of the have nots. Man I am all for discussion threads and opinion pieces, if you feel there is room for a thread about making superior trees from sticks or Walmart, then start that thread. I am sure it will be over a hundred posts by daybreak. I don't have a lot of money either and envey all those guys that can buy stock for thousands of dollars. I have no desire to think they are bad for bonsai or that they are somehow better than me. They just have more money. We all could use more money. I am proud of every piece of stock I have ever bought. I feel that I have vastly improved every one of the trees I purchased and also feel I have done enough work to call them mine.

Now if you wish to talk about talent, that will have to be reserved for another episode of Keppler's editorial's.

mcspeed and tachigi thankyou for your insights. i will now go away and be a good little bonsai boy, promise to do all my homework and learn from all my lessons here . i am in your debt.

And there you have it! The need to buy the best, so you can make your best! Will you should be trying to learn to make your best first, so you can be the guy who is selling the trees to the big wallet guys! It is less expansive and way more fulfilling! That is just the point I was trying to make!

Offcorse you are right with this, but it allso wrong to give off signals, that the only way to reach the point of having success in or with your bonsai, is if you buy only the best expansive material! Why?....Because it is simply not true! But offcorse, no one can make a good bonsai out of a stick, but you can try first! And learn the value of good material, and your own limitations! And most of all, it will develop and train your technique, intuition and imagination! You will not really train those basic skills on half finished trees, were all the important first lessons are already don by others! Mister Kimura told me once: that we Europeans have developed right from the start a much greater imaginative than the Japanese bonsai students! When I asked him why, he replied: Because westerners, will try and manage to make a bonsai out of material that the students in Japan use to sweep the floor with! I was a bid puzzled and asked him: But those bonsai will never become any good? He smiled and said: No! but you can always buy or find good material later! But you cant buy your imagination!
I am not one for Japanese phrases as you know, but this one stuck with me and is one I always use in my teaching!


I look forward to that one as well! Because you cant buy talent, no matter how much money you spent on your material! See my point?
And thanks for using the word "affluence" ,it was a great afflatus for me to wright this post!
Regards,
Hans.

al thankyou for that to i appreciate it. if i had of been entitled to my opinion in the first place there would have been no need to waste a huge part of this thread. no hard feelings on my behalf. my apologies if i have caused you angst.

Good evening, folks!

Partially inspired by the ongoing discussion here - and fueled by the hope that I shall soon be saving lots of money by quitting smoking - I went to a Bonsai nursery and bought the most expensive and 3rd most expensive pieces of stock I have ever purchased. The grand total came to $140 (Australian pesos): $90 for a fat Flowering Quince trunk, and $50 for a fat River Red Gum trunk.

That $140 could have been spent at the same Bonsai establishment on a more refined tree - maybe even one in a Bonsai pot! Instead, I ended up with a couple more sticks in (nursery) pots. OK - so they're fat sticks, but sticks nonetheless. In my estimation, it will take upwards of 10 years to make something presentable (acceptable?) from either of these trees. Knowing this, I spent more dollars on Bonsai than I ever have in a single hit.

After 10 years of farting around killing, maiming and (occasionally) styling cheap, nasty nursery trees, you'd think I would know better than to simply buy bigger, fatter versions of the trees I've fumbled with so far... But that's what I've done, and I don't regret it one bit.

Folks have talked about the multi-generational 'custodian' trees. These trees all started their Bonsai lives - and began to take on their Bonsai foundation, structure and character - somewhere. I'm happy to be that anonymous "somewhere". If I manage to leave as my legacy even one tree that warrants care - serious Bonsai-style care - I'll rest well.

Sorry for my lack of ambition.

Fly.

"But you cant buy your imagination!"

I like that Hans, what a great phrase to use especially when teaching beginners.