Masterpiece was never part of any of my vocabulary...

Thanks Al, I didn't think it was either. I thought the idea behind an editorial was to stimulate thought, which stimulates debate and or discussion. I though this thread was progressing nicely covering a variety of points of view. An editorial is after all a point of view, if that was not the intent then it would have been a pontification.

Thanks Vance, sure I like debate as much as anyone and this is the reason I post these thoughts. Sure sometimes they are controversial, but The first mud was slung here which not to beat a horse to death is where this thread took a u-turn


I understand not everyone wishes to purchase stock. I understand that there are many that would purchase better stock if it were more available and they had the money. My point was if you have the money, why would you stay with stock that takes so many years to get something better when a really good piece of stock could be purchased and worked immediately. Makes sense to me. Whining about growing is better or starting from scratch is better or that other points of view must be taken into account because other people don't have the money has no place in this discussion. Tuff toenails, No one ever said this was cheap. If you can afford why not?

Just out of curiosity I wonder what percentage of Walter Pall's collection is nursery stock versus collected or purchased? Nursery meaning a place where you buy vegetables and pony paks.

Cheers, Al

Just to put this into perspective...

If the monetary issue were removed, I'll bet 100% would respond to aquireing stock better than they already have. Is there anyone that would refuse a potential great tree at the thought that they didn't start it from a seed or cutting?

To me this is a no brainer.

OK I'll leave you to your current broadcast already in progress.

[QUOTE=bonsaial1]Just to put this into perspective...

If the monetary issue were removed, I'll bet 100% would respond to aquireing stock better than they already have. Is there anyone that would refuse a potential great tree ...........


Another slant on this for those with limited funds would be to go round the Nurseries or Garden Centres and check the trees out the back that they consider too butt ugly to sell in the main arena.

Ash

Well that may be a way...

But the point of this exercise is to get away from that idea all together. While a nursery for yard plants is a place to buy trees that can be cut down, it still is a proposition where people get stuck in the waiting game. They are not grown for bonsai purposes and will always have some traces of its meager beginnings present later down the road. It will show up in rootage and taper, two areas I just do not wish to spend a lot of time nurtureing. I would rather just pay for that and work on sculpting a tree. I know it is hard to make a paradigm shift in ones thinking. It is not for everyone.

Ask the people that have the best bonsai on any forum where they aquired that material, i'll bet in most cases it was collected or purchased. I am lucky in that I can collect my own material, but many people that wish to have a collected juniper will have to purchase one. We have to look at collected material in the same light as purchased material. They carry the same weight.

Al

Al, I couldn't agree more. I have said before that there are many paths to bonsai, and each has their own merits and drawbacks. Like you, I have moved from one to another. I prefer collected trees and prebonsai stock. I do not purchase mature trees because of the financial limitations at this time. However, in the past, my thought was always of nursery stock. What really turned me around was seeing local mentality that nursery stock was THE way to do bonsai. So we had members with 30 years experience with sticks in pots.

The expertise required to make a "masterpiece" from a collected tree and the expertise required to choose well and take a piece of inexpensive nursery stock to "masterpiece" level are two subsets of bonsai skills that overlap but are not identical. Each have their own challenges and I would never diminish one or the other.

But you are right. The best bonsai in the world are, with perhaps a rare exception, collected trees or trees that have been grown for many years expressly for bonsai. I don't have that many years to wait. Not that I intend to go anywhere, don't you know. I just want to spend my time developing things other than girth and movement. Life is too short.

Absolutely, but some of you guys are missing a point. You still have to pick something that is worth the effort, not just old, or expensive, or old and expensive. I have seen some pretty sorry Yamadori, and I have seen some pretty sad and butt-ugly expensive pre-bonsai. Just because a tree comes from this source there is no guarantee that you are going to get a world class bonsai any sooner that someone who picks nursery material carefully.

After all an old piece of ca-ca is still a piece of ca-ca, and an expensive piece of ca-ca is still a piece of ca-ca. In the end regardless of how or where you choose to obtain material it is still up to you to choose the meat and bones of the tree.

Thanks Al. I always thought Bonsai was about the trees. When I was a kid in California, the Japanese families who had bonsai passed them on to their kids, skilled neighbors etc. The joy was in the knowledge that they were participating in something that was beyond simple ownership. I tell you what Mike Perkins' big JBP at the Texas show was stunning, lot's of thousands and thusands of dollars. It has been worked on by a number of folks including Boon and marco (I believe). My appreciation of the tree was not affected by who had laid their hands on it, but by the tree in front of me.

John

Bingo!

It's not about money, nor artists. It's not about ego's and reputation. It's about appreciation of an image not born of hand, but born by sprit.

Just in case anyone is curious, this is what I found for sale at the California Bonsai Societies 50th anniversary vendor area.

No, I did not bring enough money, and no, they were not out of line price wise either. If you wish to know the prices I could be persuaded to post them.

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