I agree that there are more than one way to skin the proverbial cat. We are dealing with two, perhaps three if we talk about the restyled finished bonsai. I have in the past, and even to this day caught flack from those who say I should be dealing with better material. That may be true but in my experience most of the good material I have seen is not that good, at least in relation to the price asked for it. Good material can only be defined by the possibilities inherent in the piece itself.

There have been a couple of times I have spent more than $50 for a tree, once because the material was that good, and once for a work shop tree at a seminar. At the seminar the pieces were assigned by lottery. I can tell you that particular tree was $70 for the workshop tree which gained the title "The Ugly Shimpaku" for those who may remember my now defunct web site. I have since purchased trees for far less money of the same species that were far better and yielded far better trees. However the other tree was of my own choosing. That particular tree is the Japanese Maple you have seen me display from time to time.

In the end it does not matter where you find your trees or how much money you spend on your trees, it depends on the vision you see in your trees. A $500 dollar tree with no vision is worth far less than a $50 dollar tree with a future that touches you in your imagination. So in my way of thinking there are two path takers, those who think big bucks mean great results, and those who look for the potential of great results regardless of the source. One can be hindered by the lack of ability to come up with the price to pay for it, the other can be hindered by the inability to see what is there, neither is mutually inclusive or exclusive. The barrier is not money the barrier is personal vision.

I think I agree to a certain extent with what Al has said about the standard of trees in the gallery. If this were a European or Japanese forum the number of 'finished' or highly regarded trees would be numerous indeed. But since this is a peoples forum (i.e. non elitist) we have no discrimination as to what is on show. This does not detract from what it would appear the original aim that bonsaiTalk set out to do which was to make the site accessible to all levels of ability and affordability.

Buying established or nearly 'finished' bonsai is entirely up to the individual depending on how deep their pockets are. Re-designing or just maintaining said trees is an individual choice. The quicker we can distance ourselves from the 'haves and have nots' syndrome the richer we shall become. There was great debate on this subject in a thread some time back called 'Snobsai' which some may find interesting.

Al Keppler has a mission on this and other forums and that is to get members thinking out of the square and this he does rather well. Sure he can be controversial and sometimes misunderstood but he does get your juices going. Keep on keepin on Al.

Ash

I'm sorry...I guess I didn't make my thoughts clear enough on this...I certainly have no objections to anyone buying a finished or semi-finished tree, and even showing it as their own the very same day...It is their tree...They not only paid the bucks for it, but they also had the knowledge to choose the tree, and hopefully they will have the knowledge to maintain or hire someone to maintain the tree...If any one is interested in buying one of my trees, or hiring me to maintain their trees, we can certainly talk...Sorry though, I have never studied under a "Master", Japanese or otherwise, I do not belong to any world, national, or state organizations, I don't own any 'masakuni' tools, and I am not recognized by anyone of any authority as an artist, master, or even bonsai grower...



I don't worry about it at all, any more than you do...As a matter of fact I have spent my whole life "on the outside looking in", and it really is not that bad a place to be...Yes I will NEVER have a 'nice collection', when judged by the standards of 'those on the inside looking DOWN on the rest'...However, I will continue to gain much pleasure from watching people enjoy my trees, listening to them talk about memories and experiences that seeing my trees evokes in them, asking questions about how something was achieved, and seeing them take photos of my trees...Not world class recognition, but none the less very gratifying...I don't have the 'where with all' to buy my way into the "In-crowd", but I am also not sure I would if I could...



I too find this very exciting...We both go back a few years enjoying the art of bonsai, and what I am seeing more and more is people making the change from 'sticks in pots' to much better stock much sooner than they were even 10 years ago...Perhaps it is the education and publicity that is causing this, and as people learn enough skills to keep a tree healthy they are more inclined to get better stock to work with...



And the nice thing about commenting on an editorial such as this is, I too have no burning desire to have anyone see things my way...I only wish to point out that we are not all in this for the same reasons, nor working from the same bank account...



And thank you for this thought Mr. Ash...I fully agree with you on this...It is because of people like Mr. Al with his sometimes controversial thoughts and statements that we all have the opportunity to analyze where we are in bonsai, and how to get to the next level...

Regards
Behr

I remember way back in 2001 or 02 a first exchange with Andy Rutledge. He went on to say later in the thread about stock that a true artist is able to achieve something artistic from nearly everything. Price is not an issue. Never should be.
I wonder why there is a need for establishments like Oregon Bonsai or Golden Arrow Bonsai. Perveyors of overpriced crap....I think not! Are they for everyone?.... certainly not




A few years ago Carl Bergstrom and I had some great discussions in chat about building a part of this forum that would be secluded from those that didn't see bonsai in a more elitist light. A place where people could talk about bonsai and those that wished to come there felt much the same way. We decided that bonsaiTALK being a more community minded place was probably out of the question for a snob sub forum. Carl went on to form Art of Bonsai. In those early days I was part of the organizing party. I soon became disenchanted with what was to be the ongoing message from Art of Bonsai. The focus was not going to be on nuts and bolts of making bonsai, but rather a place to engage intellectual discussion on the artistic aspects of bonsai. I didn't want to talk about bonsai I wanted to do bonsai and I wanted to learn it from those more experienced than me.

I feel there is a better way....just exhibit some respectable artistic bonsai. Nothing more.

In my small way I have introduced in a politically correct way as possible that I am not trying to reach the part of the bonsai community with no bank account. They are not really part of this equation. I don't know any other way to be more clear on that...sorry.

Cheers, Al

I think my perspective may be unique to most, because I enjoy a somewhat rare situation in my bonsai experience. Having a mentor/master in Daniel, is allowing me to work with material far beyond my few meager years in bonsai.

I have to agree with Al... there is a short path to great bonsai. (And as with most shortcuts... it tends to be expensive.) There is nothing wrong with taking that path. Any more than there is something wrong with taking the longer path.

But as I have said before in other posts... it's all about what your goals are in the art.

Daniel had me work on a tree the other day, while he finished another we had spent a chunk of time over. What started out as a simple dead-heading on a dwarf Rhodie, turned into a complete refinement of the image... a restyle. Daniel challenged me to be brave... wanted to see what I would do with it. He provoked my mind with questions... without giving me the answers. In the end, the image wasn't a traditional Daniel kind of tree.... in fact, aside from the base, it looked very different from where it started. I styled that tree. It's Daniel's.... but now in a way, it's also mine. Even if I didn't start that tree down it's bonsai path, I have made it a beautiful tree. Because my vision was applied to a tree that was already great. And as has been said already... that's not as easy as it sounds. (lol)

In the end... Daniel was delighted. The reward for my efforts was interesting. He sent home with me (which was a first) a tree to work through on my own. It's three times larger, and three times more challenging. I may get completely licked by this tree... but it is my every intention of taking this "Daniel" tree... and making it a "Vic" tree.

Even if these beauties aren't my personal trees, there is no doubt that Daniel will look at them and smile... because he will see his student's hand every time he looks at them.

The only thing I can say about working on trees which have been bonsai for decades is this... it's PURE JOY.

And it takes every bit as much of a skill set to do it well, as starting from scratch.



Kind regards,

Victrinia

uuhhmm..... no not quite almost but not quite but each to their own.

I agree, it takes vision either way but it takes a bit more vision to take young stock and grow it into a vision hoping for branches tomorrow that today do not exist. Developed stock on the other hand is more an exercise in elimination and artistic deconstruction. Even if you screw up you still may have some good options.

yep vance that is on the money like an already developed nebari and good trunk structure. people who dont grow need to take care with such comparisons.

Good thing I grow... I'm allowed to have that comparison.

Well now you have peeked my curiosity, just what is that you are so proud of and will you share your photo's here for us to enjoy? I am absolutely thrilled when someone is growing very good stock.

I'm all a quiver...al

PS. I can show what I have been growing. In fact many of them are in articles right here at bonsaiTALK.