Good for you, Brian, that's the spirit! I just love to see people taking the leap of faith and taking it to the next level.

I understand what Hans is trying to say: why not you be the guy who sells that great material to the next master. But I see it a little differently: the most important thing is not how much others have done, but how much more you can do to improve the tree.

Brian paid a higher price for two reasons: character, and tremendous potential. When you buy character, you save 10 years, if you compare it to young nursery stock. That's because you need to spend the first 10 years just to develop character. The potential then comes with the existing character, and the fact that the tree is yet unstyled.

fly and vans, i only wish that i could have put it into words as well you two have instead i let my southern italian blood boil and allowed emotion to take over (again)

I said:
And there you have it! The need to buy the best, so you can make your best! Will you should be trying to learn to make your best first, so you can be the guy who is selling the trees to the big wallet guys! It is less expansive and way more fulfilling! That is just the point I was trying to make!


[QUOTE
I understand what Hans is trying to say: why not you be the guy who sells that great material to the next master. But I see it a little differently: the most important thing is not how much others have done, but how much more you can do to improve the tree.
/QUOTE]

Well, you see it more or less the same as me I think? It is: about how much more you can do to improve a tree! But, on any material, being good or bad! And the more or longer you train your techniques and develop your own imagination and vision, the better the final bonsai will become when you do start working on real good material! It is not easier to work on good material you know! With working on good material comes a lot of responsibility to do a good job. Styling mistakes on imported material, stick out like a sore thumb! Everything needs to be as perfect as possible to be convincing! And although a lot of people seam to think differently, this is by now means a easy task to accomplice! That's why so little good imported trees have reached there real potential as bonsai, it simply is difficult work. Working with good yamadori requires different talents, it needs a good eye for design as a lot of knowledge of the material growth habits and reactions to styling techniques. You will develop all these necessary tools for boots styles of bonsai by practicing on so called lesser and easier to acquire material. You will develop your techniques and your style and in the mean wile maybe create some actually good bonsai! If you menage to create a thing of beauty out of something not so good, imagine what you will be able to create out of something that is good already!
Makes sense I think!
Hans.

anttal63 Dude no harm no foul, I think we have all been there at one time or another. The passion is cool, Als editorials have risen a fair share of hackles here and there, but in a good way, at least I think so, I like to read stuff like this that makes you think.

I am one that does most of the phases myself, cuttings, nursery stock, bonsai nursery stock, collected, and bought yamadori, hopefully I can go the buy a Bonsai route myself, sooner than later, right now $500-2000 is not even a consideration for me, but I plan too. I also still enjoy making it all my own, but I also have won a couple of demo trees that I was really proud to own. Even those were learning tools for me, it's all good.

Signed Not an an Elitist, and my nose is too big to look down over, I just love Bonsai.

I agree most definitely. One needs to be highly skilled if working on high quality material. Otherwise, good material is wasted.

Fly,
Crappy bonsai don't tend to become multigenerational. They tend to keep getting returned to raffles until a newbie kills them;-}

John

Or until someone see something in the "Crappy Bonsai" and turns it into something beautiful. It's still an issue of vision not necessarily material.

Then it wouldn't be "crappy bonsai", it would be "potensai". Sorry couldn't resist gerrymandering with linguistics.
John

But until someone sees the potential it is a Crapsai.

Vance I believe your illiteration has promulgated distastia for this topic? Ruminations? John