Al,

While I agree with the premise (that the artist is responsible for the outcome), being very much a novice myself I feel that it's probably more apropos to encourage the novice and provide constructive criticism than to tell them that their work is garbage and that they have no vision. In fact, there are a number of factors that can contribute to a poor outcome. It could be lack of talent, lack of vision, lack of knowledge about horticultural principles, lack of knowledge about artisitic principles, lack of experience in some particular technique or with a particular species, etc., etc., etc. "Lack of talent" and "lack of vision" don't explain all bad outcomes. Even the greatest talent and keenest vision will be hobbled by lack of training and experience.

One of the values of club membership, I've found, is the opportunity to work closely with those who have much more knowledge and experience than I do. Fortunately, they also seem to remember that they were once where I was. They never act superior to me, never try to put me down in the subbasement of some contrived "pecking order". They see the flaws in my work, sure, and they point them out. But they do so in a manner that helps me learn and encourages me to keep trying.

Of course, the world isn't always a friendly place and I do agree (having learned from experience in other venues) that it's worth developing a bit of a thick skin where criticism is concerned. But human nature being what it is, when people criticize what you have done you are probably going to feel, somewhere down there in your gut, that they are criticizing you, even if your head knows better. That's just the way it is. So the skilled teacher (bonsai or otherwise) is no more ham-handed in critiquing the work of others than the skilled bonsai artist is ham-handed when trying to train a branch.

We try not to put more pressure on a branch than it can handle. Shouldn't we treat each other with the same care? Or is there some pecking order out there that places the tree on a higher level than the person who's trying, however inadequately, to train it? I hope not, and if there is I'm sure you don't personally subscribe to it. Even so, we can all learn to be better teachers of . . . whatever skills we might wish to teach.

I think the phrase that has taught me the most is from Boon, after I had worked long and hard putting wire on big california juniper:

"What is that? That is wrong. Take wire off and do it again."

It stings (still does), but because of the requirement to do it correctly (How many times have we seen trees where the person who worked on it says "I wired this one up real quick, that doesn't matter tho, tell me what you think of the tree."), you actually make progree and lear how to do things the right way. Poor wiring technique does limit what you can do with a tree- and it looks bad. So criticism should address an issue that can be corrected- like- pick better material, etc. But it doesn't necessariily need an atta boy or atta girl attached to t. Want to see some good critiques- go look at what Walter Pall used to do here- he certainly used a direct (and I believe) effective manner of critique.

John

As far as teaching goes, there are many way to say the same thing. In teaching, the idea is put forward the right way of doing a thing in a way that encourages the individual to want to continue learning, not to convince them simply that they are wrong, which teaches helplessness (see e.g. Seligman. 1975). There is a difference.

If a person has attempted to do a thing (perfrom some process) and the result is flawed, or incorrect, it never hurts to acknowledge the effort that person put into their attempt. To simply dismiss their effort completely reduces the likelyhood that they will put in as much effort the next time (a basic principle of operant conditioning), which does not help the teaching process.

Seligman 75, huh? Is there a complete refrence? Or is this out of a thesis and quoted thusly? This should bring on a spathe of pseudointellectual babble about teaching methods and approaches from a psychosial perspective.

Nuts and bolts:
Beginner makes efforts, beginner is praised for efforts, efforts are really mediocre, but due to raise beginner thinks he/she knows craft, beginner makes same mistakes over and over, mediocre trees ensue and are presented as bonsai with "X number of years of trainng", Beginner makes same mistakes over X years, thus never really advances, even though viewed with awe in club is really still a beginner. It is a simple arithmetic issue, if realized experience is equal to 0, then years x experience would be X x 0=0, reagardless of the number of years attempted.

I trained graduate students (and a bunch of undergraduate research students)for a long time. I always tried to be the kindly mentor, but it was the kids who were challenged to improve, by deconstruction of their efforts, that succeeded the most by becoming the truly excellent and independent scholars.

I am going outside now to enjoy the sunshine and have great thoughts, or mediocre ones, here in Toulouse among les Pyrenees (no diacritical marks on my USA computer), on a fine late summer day in France.


John

I was referring to Seligman's original study in 1965 (the '7' is a typo for which I apologise) in which he discovered the phenomenon of ‘Learned Helplessness’. However, for complete references relevant to this topic, see for example:

Garber, J. and Seligman, M.E.P. (Eds.). (1980). Human Helplessness: Theory and Applications. New York: Academic Press.

Peterson, C., Maier, S., and Seligman, M.E.P. (1993). Learned Helplessness: A Theory for the Age of Personal Control. New York: Oxford University Press.

Seligman, M.E.P. (1991). Helplessness: On Depression, Development, and Death. (2nd Ed.). New York: W.H. Freeman.

This is a flawed argument in which you are confusing effort with result. I do make a distinction between the two in my previous post.

You can praise a beginner for the effort they put in to a process, and still point out the flaws in the result. The effort applied by a student and the results of that effort are separate issues. My point was that to simply dismiss the effort and point out the flaws can be counter productive.

Deconstructing their efforts is different from dismissing them.

I don't see why my simple observation should bring on a spate of 'pseudo-intellectual babble' about teaching methods. I consider myself to be qualified to make such an observation. I have my B.Sc. in Psychological Science, I am a Ph.D in Psychology and I am a Chartered Psychologist (so, of course I am going to take a psychological perspective and learning is a psychological process). I am a Senior Lecturer at a University in London and I have been teaching at undergraduate and post graduate level for 10 years. Over recent years I have also been involved in research into Teaching and Learning (see references below).


Enjoy the day. It’s a bit cloudy here in the UK, but then, for us it’s been a very poor summer overall.



References:

Hixenbaugh, P., Pearson, C., & Williams, D. (2006). Student perspectives on personal tutoring: What do students want? In L. Thomas & P. Hixenbaugh (Eds), Personal tutoring in higher education (pp. 45-56). Stoke on Trent, UK and Sterling, USA: Trentham Books.

Hixenbaugh, P., Dewart, H., Drees, D. & Williams, D. (2005) Peer e-mentoring: Enhancement of the first year experience. Psychology Learning and Teaching. 5 (1), pp.8-14

Dewart, H., Golding, J., Hixenbaugh, P., Murphy, R., Towell, T., Urwin, P., and Williams D. What is student life really like? A university-wide psychological study. Presented at HERDSA conference Perth Australia, July 2006.

Dewart, H., Hixenbaugh, P., and Williams, D. Does ‘feeling you belong' matter? Integration and health in first year University students. Presented at First Year in Higher Education Conference Brisbane July 2006.

Hixenbaugh, P., Dewart H., and Williams, D (2006) The First Year Experience: Surveying Key factors in student progression. Poster presented at The Challenge of Diversity: Teaching, Support and Student Learning NUI. Galway, Ireland, 8-9 June 2006.

Dewart, H., Hixenbaugh, P., Drees, D. & Williams, D. (2003). Electronic peer mentoring: A scheme to enhance support and guidance and the student learning experience. Presented at: Educause in Australasia Conference. Adelaide.

Thanks glider for the clarification. I understand now how important it is to let someone know how much I appreciate the effort they went to, to make a less than ideal bonsai according to principles laid down for centuries.

I find it ironic that this thread found it useful to let everyone know in the title that this bonsai was going to be non traditional. Even there the debate wages for the defensiveness in bonsai mediocrity.

My editorial had more to do with posting less then ideal trees yet pretending a person is somewhat of an authority on bonsai. I recently changed my signature to "It's not about being right, it's about doing right". There is nothing wrong with going against the grain, just be prepared for those that are gliding down the flume. Don't talk the good talk, walk the good walk.

Cheers, Al

Al,
Well said. I really liked the reviews Walter Pall used to do here. I realize that his use of strong words frequently caused heartburn for those who posted trees for critique, and he was very blunt with me on trees of mine he saw in person, but he was right on from his perspective.

Glider, I won't go into the issues I have with the "soft" sciences, that is for another forum. Economy of bandwidth and all

John

In many ways, as an educator (degree and everything!), I agree with with Glider. But Al, I gotta hand it to you. That is one of the all time great quotes. I have to have that engraved on something.

Brent
EvergreenGardenworks.com
see our blog at http://BonsaiNurseryman.typepad.com

Do you think it is reasonable for you to expect a student to make an ‘ideal’ bonsai in their first attempt? Or second, or third, or fourth…?

A basic principle is that people only expend effort for reward. It is a basic rule and it applies to anything with a limbic system, not just to humans. Reward can take many forms, but in bonsai it is a sense of achievement in the process of creation and the beauty of a well formed, healthy tree. For most, that is the only reward as most are not paid for their efforts. We actually put in a lot of effort to achieve this and, as you know, the reward makes it worth the effort.

Due to their skill, experienced bonsai artists can put in less effort and achieve greater reward for their efforts. Students can’t. They have to put in a great deal of effort at first and will not necessarily achieve much reward for it at all.

If, as a teacher, you consider it your role to promote the art, then you have to understand another basic principle that again applies to anything with a limbic system. If a behaviour results in no reward (or a punishment), the probability of that behaviour occurring again is significantly reduced. If this pattern is repeated a sufficient number of times (and not as many as you would think), the behaviour will extinguish. The student will simply stop trying and move on to some other, more rewarding pastime.

So if, for example, you consider sarcasm and derision an appropriate way to make your point in a lesson, you can only reasonably expect your students to become discouraged and eventually, to give up altogether. Nor could you be said by any reasonable observer to be promoting anything.

If a student is putting in the effort, then they are performing a directed behaviour. If their results are not up to scratch, then your job as teacher is to modify the behaviour not discourage or extinguish it. You also have to encourage the student to keep trying, even though their result is not successful or rewarding. As a teacher, you have to have the student’s behaviour to work with in the first place.

How can you encourage continued effort in the face of no reward? Well (apparently), you have two options:

1) You can completely dismiss the effort the student put in to their work and dismiss their result, for example: “What is that? That is wrong. Take the wire off and do it again.”, which boils down to no reward, plus punishment. Moreover what does it actually teach?

Or

2) You can acknowledge their effort and try to modify their behaviour (i.e. redirect their effort), for example “I can see you put a lot of effort into that. It’s definitely an improvement over your last attempt, but you see here, how the wire doesn’t support these bends? You see how it’s not properly anchored, so if I move the branch this way, it won’t hold? Ok, good effort, have another go”.

Can you tell me honestly that these two approaches are likely to be equivalent in their efficacy?

The relationship between teaching and learning is only correlational. You can teach, but you can’t make another want to learn. If you want your student(s) to excel, then one of the best things you can do as a teacher is to encourage a student to want to continue learning. Not surprisingly, to do this, you have to be encouraging.


A further point concerning this response:

This is a Strawman argument. I’m neither promoting nor defending mediocrity in bonsai, I’m opposing mediocrity in teaching. Is it reasonable to suppose that being extremely good at a thing automatically makes one as good at teaching it?

I absolutely agree with your point that mediocrity should be discouraged. It is perfectly reasonable to hold excellence in the highest regard and to teach students to aim for it wherever possible. What I do not understand is why my point that there are more and less effective ways of doing so is receiving such derision.

You are evidently experienced in the art of bonsai, and so I respect your views on bonsai (at least those I have read here and in other places). This does not mean necessarily that I would accept blindly everything you say, but if I had an issue with anything you said, I would address it and present my reasoning with respect.

I am experienced in teaching and research into teaching method and I have presented my qualification in those areas as evidence of that experience. Why then is it any less reasonable for me to expect some respect for my views on teaching and why do you consider it acceptable to respond to those views with strawman arguments and sarcasm?

By all means, take issue, but present a case.

Do you believe your opinion concerning the so-called ‘soft’ sciences in any way reduces the validity of anything I have said here?

If you are a ‘hard’ scientist well versed in logic, then you should know that thinly veiled insults to my discipline do not constitute a rebuttal.

.

I have a feeling that those who strive for excellence and who are "self motivated" will achieve excellence whether taught with kid gloves or harsh criticism.Fragile egos need not apply.

And then there are those that may have the talent and capabilities to achieve excellence and yet are timid in their approach because of early criticism.

And of course,there are those who demand excellence from others even if their own efforts are lacking any kind of originality and artistry....and while I do have some people in mind with this statement,I am not speaking of anyone in particular.There are plenty of experts on the forums who know all the rules and have plenty of experience but who create less than exciting art.

Not being in the education field I don't know all the theories of teaching.But,as a superviser of a large number of people,all with differing personalities and capabilities,I realize that different people respond to different methods for maximizing their performance.

Speaking to Al directly....I admire and appreciate your work and the efforts you have put forth in educating on the forums.There are some who take disagreement as disrespect.I don't think you fall in this category,at least I hope not.All the knowledge and thought provoking posts you provide are too valuable to us to lose.Even if,some of the provoked thought is not in agreement with your own philosophy. I don't think I have seen anyone actively promote mediocrity.Some,myself included,have learned that mediocrity is the best some can or are willing to do.We don't all have the same passion,drive and/or abilities.Why bash someone for partaking in an activity they love even when their results are less than good?

andy