Mark....

My friend, the differences in what we both said are very small... I said unnecessary... and you said a little. I don't think that someone should be given unrealistic expectations of a tree... and no doubt, if they are all on fire and love said flawed tree... that telling them kindly the truth about what they are trying to work with, will indeed cause some level of discouragement. BUT you give them the tools and insights to make better choices... show them examples of what can be accomplished with good materials. If you are motivated you tell them where to go to find such material. It's all in delivery, and what you decide to contribute to their future success. Unnecessary is the operative word in my sentance. Maybe I should of bolded it?? Anyway...

As to the idea of weeding out who has what it takes? Oh come on.... lol Even for you that comment is the height of conceit. So I have to relegate it into the category of jest.

Just because someone will never be the next great bonsai artist... or even the next rockm... it doesn't mean that their interest should not be encouraged.

Yours most kindly,

Victrinia

"and no doubt, if they are all on fire and love said flawed tree... that telling them kindly the truth about what they are trying to work with, will indeed cause some level of discouragement. "

Yeah, suuuuure . Kindly telling them their tree needs work can be no better than simply stating it and telling them why. I challenge you to kindly tell 150 people their trees need work and not find at least 40 of them are offended you are not simply awed by their creation or ideas. It's that 40 I am talking about who will take a "kind" criticism for "this tree is perfect." Subtlety is lost on the Internet.

"He would talk about how he can't understand it because he is used to working with great teachers like John Romano and Master Suthin. He talked about the fact that no matter how small the question it wouldn't OCCUR to them to treat a someone with disdain or disrespect."

I always find people who tsk tsk "what goes on" on bonsai Internet sites a little high-handed. Master Suthin and Master Romano MIGHT take exception if they had students in their face telling them they are simply ignorant, doofusses, dimwitted or worse. Of course this is free. They charge...so if you're paying, you might be more inclined to listen to what you paid for.

Comparing live in person classes with what goes on here is apples and oranges. I have given people I've met online some live instruction informally. Believe me, It's different.



As for the conceit part, would you expect anything less from me? And, for the record, there ARE NO other rockms. Accept no substitute

All infants are slugs Mark. They drool, cry, crap in their pants , and hunger.



I agree that people are responsible for there own actions. By giving advise and posting it, you are making an attempt to influence the person's thinking. Why else would you make the effort to reply? Yet you say your not responsible for them, even if you have effectively influenced them. Kinda sounds like you want your cake and eat it to. Where have I heard that before Crushing peoples "widdle dreams" may not be an issue for you, it is for some others. I think people forget that there are some kids on here seeking advise, and I do mean kids. To cite an example, my daughter who is ten was seeking out information, essentially doing her research. She asked an informed question. A BT member gave her the slam about her question. Now my daughter is pretty thick skinned, but she immediately formed an opinion about this forum and moved off to another forum where her question was greeted and a good dialogue ensued. People need to pull up on the slam dunks



I'm confused here didn't you post:

I checked the definition of premeditated:
planned in advance; not spontaneous.

So if you think that discouragement is appropriate your thought was premeditated. Don't blame me, that's what the dictionary said.

If you look at my post I said:

I don't need to do a search of your name. I know that you help people. I have participated in threads and witnessed it. Thats why I thought your statement was a bit harsh and uncharacteristic of you from what I have seen in your posts .

As I said before you are entitled to your opinion. I am hopefully trying to influence you with my post. Which I take total responsibility for. Now can we talk about the dog

Mark...

True... I would expect no less. But as I said... I take it as tounge in cheek.

Your amusement in this conversation... and your adoration of taking your favorite position, that of the contrary, is not lost on me. I look at all your blustering and am deeply amused myself... because I get to watch you grinning over the pot, waiting for your next chance to dip your spoon in and stir.

Yours most kindly,

Victrinia

Here's an example from an experience today. I stopped in at a local nursery that is trying to branch out in to bonsai. They had a customer purchasing a few plants in the bonsai area. One fukien tea and 2 juniper. He was asking more than the attending people could answer from experience so they stopped me from weeding pines and asked if I could help. Sure - no problem, always glad to help a new person in bonsai.

He wanted to put all three in pots. Finished pots. Cut the roots way back and plop them in. Then trim the tops and make them look like bonsai. He was limited on time so I gave him a quick tour of some finished trees and explained the process. Basically telling him they were :

a) Not ready for small pots. Still need to grow out, thicken up. They needed to be potted up - not down.
b) Under no circumstance to do work on the top and the roots at the same time, perhaps not the same year.
c) That this takes time, and lots of it. There is no instant bonsai so don't try it as they will most certainly die.

He explained that he has killed 20 + plants trying this. I asked how many he has that have lived. None. None have lived. He explained that he was getting frustrated trying and failing and that he has all sorts of bonsai books and reads all sorts of bonsai web sites (perhaps here).

I asked him if he understood what I had explained to him and he replied yes and that he was going home to remove only about 1/3 of the root-ball and pot them down and then perhaps trim some off the top.

I offered him an invite to the local club meeting and politely excused myself. What I was thinking was "whatever". That was 15 - 20 minutes I won't get back. The trees will die. I'm glad the nursery made a few bucks but seriously - I should have acted stupid and went about my business.

In the context of Al's opine here's a guy that keeps trying and keeps failing. Wonder how much longer he'll throw good money away trying to master the most basic technique - keeping the tree alive for more than a month.

Graydon, the important part here is you tried. Thats all you can do. With some people they need to hit their head on the brick wall enough till it hurts. It's then they go "Oh yeah, I remember that guy saying to do this.

Keep the faith

"It is impossible for a man to learn what he thinks he already knows." - Epictetus

Great things can be accomplished using vision with a stick in a pot..it may not be "bonsai" but it is tree art worthy of high praise in my book. That ol flower could just as easy be a stone..that would make it bonsai then I bet.


http://www.ikenobo-ikebana-art.de/i...nising_4_06.jpg

You know Ron the great thing about the human condition is that its always subject to change.

A very thought provoking editorial, Mr. Keppler. As a beginner, I must admit that I've never come up against the "don't try this at home" mentality you have written about. Most of the books, articles, and advice from the forum communities I visit have been very helpful with whatever technique I was pursuing. I'm sure that the kind of attitude you're talking about exists, but it's certainly not terribly rampant.

Honestly, if anything, a beginner can be overwhelmed by the amount of options they have available to them. Pick up your average beginner's bonsai book and you'll find that half the book is dedicated to assaulting the novice with a staggering variety of "suitable bonsai species." I can understand that these books are trying to help the beginner out with and feel good about whatever tree they happen to have, but they did nothing to help a bonsai newbie decide what would be a good species to start with and learn from. [Lindsay Farr's World of Bonsai series was a real eye-opener in this regard. After compiling a list of hundreds of "suitable bonsai species" from an assortment of books, seeing that the large Chinese & Japanese bonsai gardens consisted of only a handful of species was very enlightening.] Likewise, most beginner's bonsai books have a section with an extensive lists of bonsai styles, required tools, propagation methods, pruning techniques, etc. A beginner feels much more confused about not knowing where to start than he feels hampered by being told he's not allowed to try certain things.

I feel what's sorely needed is a book or artcle for beginners that's far prescriptive than anything I've found out there. Something that tells the novice, "Buy tree X, Y, or Z from your local nursery. Repot it with THIS method. Prune it with THIS technique. Water it THIS way. Place it in THIS amount of light. Feed it THIS kind of fertilizer. Protect it from the winter winds in THIS manner." I think would be better received than you might suppose. Going on to say, "Now that you know the basics, go ahead and try out one of THESE other species, using one of THESE other methods, etc." would probably be a more constructive way to introduce the wider world of options to a newbie.