One man's @#$% is another man's shinola. Who are we to judge?

Well let me go out on a limb here. I know there are some members here that have done their share of workshop instructer, or senior club member that all the members send everyone too for the answers. I have been there and done both. I can tell you that when working a room and giving advice to a dozen people with stock all over the spectrum as far as styling, no styling, fresh from the big box store and so on, you put the sarcasim on hold. You bite your tongue and may feel it inside but you never say it aloud. Do you guys that I am speaking of make it a habit of telling each person to just throw it away its crap or, put it in the ground and talk to me in five years? I don't think so.

The internet makes it so easy to cop out on nearly every aspect of bonsai instruction. Rather than go to the time it takes to write an appropriate response, it's much easier to tell someone to not waste their time. I understand this as well as the folks I'm addressing now. We would have never bought it in the first place, but someone else did and they need help. In the classroom, they get the help, and from someone as educated as many of us here. Why? Because it is very hard face to face to tell someone that their prize little tree is a piece of @#$%. We find a way to give them some encouragement that will not discourage them and move to the next student.

I'm not saying we all have to be goody two shoes. Far from it! I feel if you don't have anything constructive to say, why say something destructive?

Kind of like Marks first response here, with enough sarcasim to take out Al Quada

Regards, Al

Who are we to judge? If we don't know the answer to that question perhaps we should refrain from saying anything at all. If someone comes to you and asks if such and such paint is OK to use on the exterior of their house and you say yes, knowing that it is an interior latex paint, someone who thought they were getting bread actually got a stone.

I will never apologize for the truth. I always assume that beginners who come to me really want to learn bonsai, I want to teach them. I don't let them continue in the wrong direction because I think I might discourage them by telling them they are on a road to no-where. Real discouragement and disappointment is in the wasted time and effort taken on those things that accomplish nothing.

I had to learn the hard way most of what I know because there was no one to tell me different, why should I think it is alright to tell someone with a stick in a pot that someday that stick is going to be a bonsai? You and I and all of us know that is not the truth. When the truth is out there it, with the choice of the right material available in their area, will send them down a path where in fact (and not fantasy) the tree will become a bonsai. This kind of thinking, encouraging failure, does not make sense.

Yes I can and have told my students the proper way to choose a bonsai and that the tree they recieved as a gift just isn't going to amount to much as a bonsai, or their tree isn't worth the time spent.
Tempering remarks to the situation at hand of course.

But the way I tell them is what makes the difference. I speak constructively and with compassion but I tell them the truth, with a smile of course.

It's called salesmanship for lack of any other word.

This is much easier to convey in person while looking someone in the eyes rather than staring at a faceless monitor.

There will always be some dissappointment in hearing something other than praise for our efforts. But thats how we learn, how I learned.
Remarks of criticism should be tempered when put into print because it is far too easy to misunderstand and sound bad tempered or over critical.

That's true, and of course we have not avoided the truth. This entire issue goes far deeper than bonsai. The educational system is infected with it. There are school systems that are more concerned about a students "Self Esteem" than they are about them learning something that is useful in the real world.

One last analogy I would like to offer. For those of you who were in Viet Nam you will understand this right off, for those of you who were not you might have to think about it. There is a way that seems easy to get from point A to point B, that is to follow the trail that goes that direction. One of the first lesson you learned in Viet Nam was to stay off the trails. You either learned it by listening to those who had been there before you, or you learned it by getting shot at or shot, or blown up by a land mine, or falling into a punji pit. They don't call them boobie-traps for nothing.

"The thing I am most concerned about is the unnecessary discouragement of newer learners."

See, I think a little discouragement, or at least reality check, IS ENTIRELY APPROPRIATE for newer "learners." It weeds out those that don't have what it take, aren't THAT interested or those that insist they be able to keep their juniper bonsai on the TV from those that TRULY want to learn.

Those that aren't willing to do a basic search for information, can't take it upon themselves to become mildly conversant with what bonsai is, don't have the fortitude to actually get their hands dirty, etc. probably aren't gonna be around long anyway.

Those that REALLY want to learn aren't easily discouraged. They hunger for the knowledge, will actually listen to what's being said, don't take offense at every turn...

Seems a bit harsh doesn't it.

Not everybody is in bonsai for the same reason as you are. Some people want to be in it for the enjoyment of it all.

This is not a bonsai Boot Camp. And there are no drill sergeants here. A few people think they are but as you say they need a “reality check”

Maybe it is time to stop the DISCOURGAGENENT and get past giving REALITY checks. Lead (an teach) by example. Show and explain what is not only right or wrong but be able to explain why it is that way. That would be a refreshing thing. A constructive thing.

Might even keep some people interested in learning bonsai.

Mark, I usually find your comments enlightening and informative. I guess a little rain must fall every once and a while. You are entitled to your opinion and I truly hope this opinion was given tongue in cheek.

I think this statement is basically making the person who provides the discouragement Judge, Jury and Executioner. You say giving out discouragement will weed out the people who are in it for the novelty. Well what happens if you happen to unintentionally kill the hopes of a person that is in it for the love of it. If you kick a dog enough times, sure as the sun rises in the morning, that dog will bolt. I see no difference if you extinguish the flame of curiosity by discouraging that person with a premeditated act. That person will never return and it just might be to the bonsai communities lose.

I would suggest the following to the "established enthusiasts". If you don't like hearing the repetitive questions of a noob. If you don't like the questions of a noob that has blatantly not done a little research. If you don't like the all be misguided chest beating of a noob. Don't respond to the thread.... take a pass! Some of the experienced folk are crying harder than the noobs. Which makes for a very unappealing read for a informational venue.

Now that I said that, Noobs do a little research . While your itching to get into the conversation at least open another window and google your topic, it will enpower you. You'll come off a little more informed and not sound so totally lost. Humans can be lazy at times. If this is your passion, make it yours by investing yourself into it, which means researching it on your own as well as looking for advise. You'll enjoy the conversation so much more.

"I think this statement is basically making the person who provides the discouragement Judge, Jury and Executioner. You say giving out discouragement will weed out the people who are in it for the novelty. Well what happens if you happen unintentionally to kill the hopes of a person that is in it for the love of it. If you kick a dog enough times, sure as the sun rises in the morning, that dog will bolt. I see know difference if you extinguish the flame of curiosity by discouraging that person with a premeditated act. That person will never return and it just might be to the bonsai communities lose."

Oh, c'mon. This assumes the person trying to learn is nothing more than a slug, incapable of pursuing anything if they run into a little resistance, in thsi case ELECTRONIC (not even real) resistance.

The person learning is the SOLE judge, jury and executioner. It is up to him/her to pursue what they want. As much as a self-centered demigod as I am, I cannot control the actions of others, nor am I responsible for them. If someone is so shallow as to allow some cramped Internet curmudgeon like myself to crush all their widdle bonsai dreams , then that person probably has far bigger issues than whether he wants to do bonsai.

I do not "premeditate" to kill others' dreams. I do not look to actively discourage anyone. I actually try to help people. Don't think so? Do a search on my name, see what comes up. Ask anyone here....Show me where I've killed someone's dreams or told them to quit...

"If you kick a dog enough times, sure as the sun rises in the morning, that dog will bolt"

Mixed metaphor aside , Not true. To confirm people's worst thoughts about me, I've kicked my dog since he was a puppy. He's still here, he limps a bit though

Hector...

You have spoken EXACTLY my point! That trait is exactly what sets people like you apart into the realm of being a great teacher.

I've had long drawn out conversations a friend of mine who used to traffic here, but doesn't bother anymore because he got disgusted with how people would treat newer learners at times. He would talk about how he can't understand it because he is used to working with great teachers like John Romano and Master Suthin. He talked about the fact that no matter how small the question it wouldn't OCCUR to them to treat a someone with disdain or disrespect.

A teacher worth his salt teaches not only the skills or information needed.... but also manages to impart a true love for what he teaches.

As he put it so well... Blowing out someone else's candle will not make yours shine any brighter.

Yours as always,

Victrinia