I have to go with Al on this one. Seems the experienced crowd wants their cake and eat it too. We waggle our finger at the new and inexperienced and tell them their tree is a stick and has no interest your wasting your time or go plant in the ground for a couple of years then will talk. We then on the other hand talk out of the other side of our mouth and say don't try this, and don't try that, on that poor tree you'll kill it.

I fortunately didn't come to forums when I first started (if there was forums) I read books and articles. I talked to people who had been successful and those people that failed. Then I tried that technique and traveled down the path of my learning curve.If I was new to bonsai today and got the advise that is shoveled out I would throw up my hands in disgust or shoot someone the bird out of frustration and confusion. It is amazing to me that the new people press on. Which I think is a strong statement for the state of bonsai and the growing interest.

I see nothing wrong with a person trying things for the first time. With the caveat that they have done some homework on the technique they want to try. It is a given that bending a branch by fire done improperly will be dangerous to tree and enthusiast. If it isn't apparent to the individual that it is, then said individual has more pressing problems than worrying about whether he is going to turn his tree in a treebeque.

In my opinion anyone that admonishes a person for trying something new for the first time and uses the excuse that "Your going to kill a tree" is not being honest. We have all, every single one of us, been down that road. We have all had our moments of defeat as well as triumph. The knowledge that we gain from such ventures, be it on our own or from someone else, is what is important in our development.

Hello Al,

As an extremely inexperienced Newbie of 154 days, [cough!] I read encouragement in your words, not carte blanche. As an experimentalist I understand the concept of trial and error, but the potential for success is levitated by acquiring as much data as possible prior to each experiment (ie. homework). Reading and participating in this forum for example is an excellent way to supplement my data. Already, many of the names I see in this discussion are familiar responders to some of my questions.

I also spend as much of my free time in the outdoors as possible and I have a respect for the beauty of natural things. I plan on taking this respect into each Bonsai experiment I undertake and hopefully 'kill' as few trees as possible.

Thanks all for sharing your lessons and thoughts.

B.

HOORAY!!!! Al WROTE the editorial I have been pouring long thought into doing. (Thanks for sparing me the work my friend... it probably sounded better coming from you anyway. )

I will repeat though, the sentiment that was planted as a seed for thought in my mind by another member here... Internet bonsai folk eat their own young.

Sounds kind of morbid or extreme. But at the time the person had taken a considerable slap from an established member of the forum... his feelings had basis. We talked at length about other situations, similar or more mild... that were seen every day on the net... NOT just BT... but indeed throughout the various bonsai forums.

It left me with a question, I have read before, very much in the forefront of my mind...

What father, when his child asks him for bread, will hand his child a stone?

One can tell a newer learner that something is not advisable, but do not fail to give the whys or the how to's. If you cared enough to post, care enough to be through. Because the important thing in the end is NOT to quench the fire. Don't just leave them hanging with some offhanded comment about how they shouldn't waste their time with it. Because at that moment... that tree is their hope... who is anyone to crush it and simply walk away? Tom is very correct in being amazed at the tenacity of newer learners sometimes, when seeing what they face.

I have to agree with Al... it would be better to let a newer learner try and fail, than to suck the will out of them to try. Few of us are born into bonsai (in the sense of coming from a home where the art was established), we were inspired to it. Take heart in the unbridled enthusiasm of one who's eyes have only begun to see the vastness of what you attempt to grasp. Absolutely no one is the be all, end all, of bonsai knowledge.... and someday... someone who is a newer learner now will surpass everyone of us... because bonsai as an art is NOT static.

If I have to choose between saving a tree from idiots, or possibly encouraging the next one who will push the edge of this art we call bonsai... I choose the person over the medium. But mistake me not... there is no joy in losing a tree.

It is important to balance any conversation around how more experienced learners interact with newer ones. So I will leave you with this parting thought...

We have all seen times when newer learners have displayed an amazing amount of disrespect to those who are honestly trying to help them. The road of respect is a two way street.

Kindest regards to all,

Victrinia

Yeah, hypocricy is really sad, and discouraging to the initiate.


That is why I found a good, respected, respectful sensei. The abuse I suffered in Show & Tell is exemplary of what you said above. Really sad.


Thank you, well said.

"What father, when his child asks him for bread, will hand his child a stone?"

Oh puhleeze. I've had my share of children slug me in the head and demand that bread. Besides, I ain't their daddy

I've been called a few names here and other places for simply offering a sober assessement of a situation. I've been challenged by people who have little, or no, experience, on issues I've been dealing with for years, from overwintering to how to collect and other stuff. I have offered advice both respectfully and forcefully. Have had some of the same bad reactions to each way.

I don't mind being challenged, in fact, I welcome it. I've had great discussions with folks here who have challenged me. They challenged me forearmed with some knowledge going in, however. They did some basic reasearch and had some grasp of what they were talking about BEFORE they poked me in the side .

Beginners, at least some of them, want to have their cake and eat it too. Some actually DEMAND help and get in a snit if their questions aren't answered within a few days--even if they do have access to the Internet and the vast amounts of information it offers. There are endless permutations to the ways some questioners react badly or simply refuse to believe what they're being told.

I am in no way saying don't do things for yourself. THat's one of the best ways to learn. I learned that way to some extent. Comes a time when you simply have to dig that tree up and stop talking about it.

However, don't do perform some strange procedure based on something you've heard rumors about or read in a book and THEN ask here if it's OK, if you did it right, or if it will work. It may not be OK. You may have killed the tree...Don't blame the messenger. Also don't get upset if your plant kicks off prematurely because you're watering it to death, or you get shot at collecting where you're not supposed to, or if you're keeping your Black Olive like a plain olive, or your serissa is actually a ficus....

OK, so now's when I get called an elitist jerk, or a bonsai demigod, or a self-righteous know it all right? Knock yerself out I have a very thick head and hide.

HAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHA That MAY very well be the MOST number of smiley faces you have EVER displayed Mark.... (huge smile)

I for my part, will never call you a name, because one... I happen to like you... (I may be a rare bird in that, but I have enjoyed your wit on more than one occasion, current situation included.) and two... out of simple respect.

I'll say sobriety is over-rated. But tact and respect NEVER go out of style. It is completely possible to be realistic with someone, and still be kind. And if it is possible... why not do so? How much more effort is it to be kind? It's that whole bees with honey thing you know... And though I doubt you care if you have bees.... we are a community in this... and the kindness we exert with one another (and yes, with certain people it is a strenuous effort) will have effects beyond the moment we take the time to extend it.

I will not sacrifice giving respect because it has not been handed back to me at every turn.

There were large sections I was going to put in that first post, that I removed. I didn't want to range too far afield in that particular response... so I cut a bunch out... this is one particular section... pasted back in.

*Notes to newer learners... If you do not want to be enlightened... don't ask. This is not a parade of trees, where everyone is going to pat you on the back, and tell you that you and your tree are marvelous. A GOOD evaluation of a tree, if that is what you have asked for, will and SHOULD be balanced with with both it's merits and it's faults. The key is asking how to solve the issues that create the faults... or stating what your intentions are for it, so that people already know you have a plan. And in the end... smile and remember that everyone started out with the same amount of knowledge you did..... none. (smile)*

Funny.... but I don't think our perspectives of what goes on in the forum is all that far apart. I just choose to approach it in a very different way. Maybe we'll call that last bit "kind sobriety"...lol

In the end though, I think our goals are the same... teach what we know to those who desire to learn... (not that I would dare to compare myself with you in that fashion )... and learn a few things ourselves.

Warmest regards,

Victrinia

Dang it Mark... I just counted up those smile thingies... you used more than I did. (grin)

Yes, No, Maybe.

Part of the issue Miss Vic hit on, if you post, why not be thourough. If everyone that posted were required to answer that way all the time, there might be 6 members here not 9000+- IMHO anyway.

How about when you see, "hey I put a question up and NOBODY has answered me"

I see this often, and it is usually a question thats been answered a million times, yes I know that person only asked once, so why didn't I take the time to be nicer to them? At what point is enough info, at what point is tooo much info, this often is easy based on the words in the question, you just get to know who put in any effort for themselves, or do they just want someone else to do it for them.

Now Victrinia, I am not picking on or arguing with you, but at some point the questioner has to bear some responsability for the answers , and you know that in a lot of cases we can tell the experiance or total lack of in just a few words. The internet has brought us to the need for instant answers, but our hobby is full of the requirement for patience, and these are diametrically opposed things. Not sure if it possible but could it be set up so a newbie to the site has to do some pre reading, or at least a primmer on what is available on the site, so they are at least familiar with how to garner oft given opines, before they irratate the masses with questions that have been answered over and over. Would it be more appropriate to just have no one give them an answer, I think no so sometimes I will give a Hey look it up it's there in writting alreadry, answered thouroughly, and for several types of trees.

Mark hit it good too, when you get asked, give a great answer, then get hit with, yea but I want to do this anyway, how do think i should do it ? If I answered that question, gar - un - teeeeeed I will be blamed for the outcome with bad results, even if I posture my answer like a lawyer.

Sometimes too you just have a bad day, poor excuse, but we have all been on that side of the grey area.

I am a proponant of try it and see what happens, but with some prior knowledge, even if just a mimimum so I know if the process is at least failing miserably.

Ah! Professional stunt man don't try this at home.

A professional has paid over and over again to learn his lessons ( unless very talented, brilliant, or very lucky, or combinations), Walter is proud of his work with very good reason, and I would be willing to bet he has had some failures, he works with us often, and free, sometimes I would expect that he would have earned the right to tell us that we should leave it to someone that has had success, with out the need to defend his choice. Again I think he is proud of his work, I think that when Americans, and Europeans converse there is something lacking in the translations ( partly due to day to day conditions where we live, and the typical sociological differances of different nationalities), and I do not think he is an Eliteist for having his earned opinions.

I rail in behind rockm on this one, partly due to being reamed through pm for telling someone I didn't have time to critique a whole catalog of trees, (he wanted to buy 1 or 2 and was obviously a newb), and I had answered his "actual question" first, so if you ask for the moon, expect a "MOON" (_*_) . The thing that peeved me the most was the chewing out came from someone who doesn't bother to post.

All I would ask is use common sense, most of us ask questions that have essentially been done to death, but we a least try to put things in order first, look at it from experiance, question in a specific vein. -

I got a bonsai, how should I train it, isn't a viable question. Deserves - Read, Read, Read, then ask again.

I got a bonsai and it's brown, what should I do deserves a - hehehe, me too, hope you don't do it again, heres what you did wrong. Good Luck.

You can't teach bonsai in one thread, let alone all of them, why would you try. That said well done articles and threads have a huge impact on us and provide a wealth of info, but you got to walk before you can run, and thats what doesn't seem to get taken into consideration, by the bashees. So please read "some" info first, or at least start the question with " I realize that this has been answered before but I don;t feel like doing any research, so would one of you type me up a paper on how to bonsai my $ 349.95 bonsai so it won't dye."( yes I know it's die)

People are people, and will always be people, this should not even try to be explained, at least not here, maybe our psychology sister site.

Some of the answer came yesterday on the Today show, did you all see it, the name of the Newest generation. is - Me generation, self centered, and not very open minded.
One thing we could all do when working here is to respond to the question the best we can, and don't try to read into the response what someone felt, it's free info everybody, lets not let it make us crazy, use it if you trust the source. Mark, John, Brent, Walter, Tom, Collin, Jerry, Al, Behr, Vons, Ron, et.al, thank you for being you, keep telling it like it is.

Bill

Bill...

First... no worries that I might feel picked on or argued with. The point of an opinion thread is to be able to express just that, an opinion. Whatever we say will be read by others who will have the chance to decide for themselves the merits of the opinions expressed. I agree that people have a responsibility to try and search out the things they want to know. I have indeed seen the same questions brought up over and over again. Interestingly the success of a topic being searched has a lot to do with how the title to a thread is worded. I have, in the past, advocated for thread titles which are succinct and speak to the main point.

I guess the only thing I can say is this... The thing I am most concerned about is the unnecessary discouragement of newer learners. If I have not expressed that in so many words previously, I do apologize. One can convey good information... even if that information is simply to tell someone how to query a search for what you know already exists in the forum. As often as not in the past, I have sent private mail to individuals to tell them how to access information, and give them an understanding as to why people may have been less than receptive to their query.

I am not a certified teacher... but I have worked in youth organizations as a teacher and mentor for 16 years. My perspectives are colored by my desire to equip someone with information and ideas, to help them be successful. Are some people lazy about learning? Sure... Some students are better than others. Ultimately if you choose to participate in someone’s learning experience by hitting a button that lets you post a comment, you do end up assuming a certain level of responsibility for that experience.... at least in my opinion.

And no... the experiance of learning, and it's outcomes are not the same thing. I do not agree with someone blaming you, or anyone for that matter, over how something turns out. You can give advice, thoughts or directions... but ultimately the responsibility for the outcomes belongs to the doer.

Kindest regards,

Victrinia

I think your approach here is kind of doubld minded. On one hand you suggest that we should not try to guide or teach the beginer on the choice of material or what to do with that choice. On the other hand you suggest that the beginner should use all of these advanced techniques that fall into the "For Professionals Only" category. I am all for people trying new things but I am also in favor of teaching the difference between $#i+ and shinola. One should have an idea of how to polish one's shoes and what to polish them with before they decide to make their own shoes. Of course this is just my opinion and doesn't mean much.