How much trust do we put in someones opinion? It's all about one thing on the internet....post count. Simple as that. Are you gonna listen to someone who has 4 posts or someone who has 1,398? And do we do bonsai for ourselves or others approval? Most would want to hear something nice about their own tree or trees, sure, we all want some kind of approval on some level. It's like walking a thin line.

I remember when I first posted on another site about a tree I had done a short workshop session 1 on 1 with Johnny Uchida. He had turned the 1st branch into the apex, and I was amazed, and wondered why I hadn't seen that. So I posted it, and someone (no, I won't mention his name) who is rather high up in the "American" bonsai heirarchy, posted basically that that was all fine and good, but come back when you have something more impressive than a stick in a pot. I was crushed. Deflated. I try to remember that when I post now, to be constructive. So we DO care what others say about our trees. Whether or not we seek advice on what to do, or whether we just post for informative squibbling, a kind word or constructive comment is always welcome. Personally, I've thickened up ALOT since that day, and you can tear me a new one on my trees, and I'll listen to what you have to say-I'll listen and explain why I did what I did, or maybe rethink what I'll do the next time.

So I believe we do bonsai for ourselves in the beginning...ever see how excited someone is when they post that first juniper that they've rendered almost dead? How proud of the curves and wiring? Sure, they'll learn more as they go along, but they did it for themselves. And they want you to see. As we go along, we start asking more questions, forming opinions, OTHERS opinions, and then we search for the status quo opinion. Inevitably, we start to absorb those opinions into our trees, and thats when you wake up with cold sweat on your brow in the middle of the night screaming "IT'S JUST LIKE AL'S!!!" (just messin with you Al). But we do absorb. Like it or not, we absorb info into our subconcious. And can we control our subconcious? Nope.

This has to be the longest post I've ever rendered, but I feel the internet has ALOT to do with the way we learn bonsai today. And it all comes down to what I read about what Kimura said at the convention recently, and that was basically, and I'm paraphrasing, we spend too much time talking about our trees instead of working on them. Work with a teacher, the best you can find. Then find another. I was kicking myself recently, when I found out Boon has Saturday workshops. Guess who's gonna be going to some very soon. And it's fine to post trees you worked on, PLEASE, opinionate me more, people. I love the info. But also, allow yourself the teacher opinion.

And get together, have study groups. Look at the trees first hand. Wonder what you can do with others, just like we do here at BonsaiTalk. I had a blast when everyone brought trees over at the BBQ. Seeing trees first hand is second to none, that's why I go to shows. Nothing beats a tree well manicured, healthy, and poised. It talks to you. It says here I am. And you know what? You remember that tree. And it helps form an opinion of what you think bonsai is. And yes, you do it for yourself, just like in the beginning, but you do it better, and you do it with more opinions floating around in your head.

Scott

Facts are black and white. Like a good photo, bonsai is never completely black or completely white. The tension and drama exist within these poles and are realized in every possible shade of gray. The cascading opinions of generations eventually coagulate into guidelines or preconceptions that we assimilate and use in our conversations with trees. For each of us this set of assumptions is different. As we are separated by time and distance these assumptions can vary extensively. The study of bonsai is a journey in three stages:

First we learn the rules, the "facts" if you will. In this stage we overcollect, overwork and oversimplify our trees. We don the chasuble of certain masters we admire without really understanding how they came to greatness. We aspire to cubism without ever acknowledging the proportions of human anatomy.

But if we keep our eyes, and ears open, we notice someday that a true masterpeice doesn't always follow the rules. Sometimes subtle, sometimes blatant, more and more we see trees that are great in spite of broken rules. And then, an epiphany! These are not random abberations; masters are breaking rules on purpose. So rules are not facts, they are not black and white. Not all trees are 6:1. The Golden Rule of Division is not simpy 3:1. The Fibonacci number series does not completely cover all aspects of bonsai design. So in this Bonsai middle ground we begin to reassess our set of assumptions. We begin to purposely break rules and stray so far from gudelines that our trees suffer in the process.

It is in the third stage that we begin to rectify the incongruities of the previous two. A bonsai creates dynamism with broken rules only within the context of expectation created by following them. Without the framework of form, bent and broken rules have no meaning, no function.

So what. Why would anyone have read this far about the opinion of an unknown with three posts? Because you have realized that the observer is an integral part of the process. Of course we care what others think about our trees, our thoughts, our passion. We don't just want interaction, we require it.

Bonsai requires three things: living material; an interpreter to manipulate it according to his preconceptions; and an observer to interact with it. We should not be both the creator and observer of our trees. Beauty is not found until the circuit is complete and our work elicits a response in another.We can give our trees a voice but we cannot control how they use it.

Nor have any of you been able to control Mr. Keppler's voice. Has he made any of us reconsider our preconceptions? Or has he galvanized the assumptions that we hold dear. Could it be a combination of both? He should not be petitioned for solutions; he should be commended for observations that cause us all to think and interact. Does his concern fly in the face of Bonsai? Certainly not. It completes the triangle and puts a smile on its face.

In general, I believe that Tinitrees has written a well worded response to the original question. Upon reading it I found my self remembering being at all three stages during my time in bonsai.

About the only part that I would disagree with is the following statement.

Quote:

Bonsai requires three things: living material; an interpreter to manipulate it according to his preconceptions; and an observer to interact with it.

I would hasten to say that I believe that you would require a group of observers in order for them to form a consensus of opinion which would be more valuable than just another opinion.



And the last paragraph did make me think.

Quote:

Nor have any of you been able to control Mr. Keppler's voice. Has he made any of us reconsider our preconceptions? Or has he galvanized the assumptions that we hold dear. Could it be a combination of both? He should not be petitioned for solutions; he should be commended for observations that cause us all to think and interact. Does his concern fly in the face of Bonsai? Certainly not. It completes the triangle and puts a smile on its face.

I believe that the answer is a bit of both (I know that he got my back up with a few points), however I am trying to think about the merits of his comments. I also believe that when one wants to be a critic one has to expect to be criticized and while his observations may be good opinions one should also be able to offer solutions or else risk being labeled a winger.



Jon

Where is it written that wingers have to offer up solutions?

ak

Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.

(Aldous Huxley) I think that covers it Pup