Facts or Opinions?

Bonsai or plant in pot? Well that seems to be the question doesn’t it. It does not matter what we do we seem to faced with someone’s opinion at every turn in this art called bonsai. In fact the very notion of calling it art is based on opinion.

Have you ever really taken a moment to reflect just how much impact opinion has to do with bonsai. I can make a statement like, “ If I do everything correctly in the steps to make a layer, the plant will produce a layered plant.” Fact!
1. Have I improved the plant by taking the layer? Opinion…
2. Does the layer contain redeeming qualities over what I started with? Opinion…
3. Is the new layer artistic? Opinion….

Andy Rutledge says there are facts to artistry. Really, are there, or is that his opinion. I don’t think you can style bonsai by the numbers. You just don’t have the same freedom to sculpt with bonsai as you do with other mediums used for such practice. I would say that artistic practice could make an art form from clay or stone where living problems would not pose an issue. That is my opinion there.

We take a plant to the club workshop. The visiting teacher says that the plant has redeeming qualities…opinion, he says that we can improve the plant by taking off this branch…more opinion, by placing the plant at this angle in the new pot will improve the bonsai…opinion! Who’s opinion, the visiting teacher? Do you concur with the teacher? What if the teacher recommends something that you do not agree with? If you choose to not follow his recommendation, you have chosen your own opinion over his? Is this the most sound idea? Why take a plant to a workshop with out trusting what the teacher may recommend? You have to trust his opinion.
If you choose to take a plant to a workshop this decision should be based on the body of work the artist has done and exhibited. Your opinion formed by this body of work may not be felt by all in your club. They may not agree with you and have their own opinions.

Walter Pall feels that his compositions are more naturalistic, while I feel that they are more classical than he thinks they are. We each have an opinion on the work. That opinion may be validated by a majority of prospective viewers, but it is not fact. This would be a consensus of opinion. All that we view in bonsai is opinion.

The recent thread about the convention in California was subject to many opinions. While the majority of the opinions expressed dealt more with the exhibit than anything else, my opinion of the shortcomings of the convention had more to do with the operational components of the whole affair. We all had an opinion, yet they all dealt with different ideas, but the combined opinion was that the convention had shortcomings.
Many times while dealing with bonsai, opinions are different, yet when seen through squinted eyes, they blend to form a consensus. In the recent thread about Bonsai Today magazine, many opinions were thrown around. The underlying consensus is that Bonsai Today is in decline. That is a fact. What to do to improve it, save it, modify it are all opinions.

Every idea that is seen on the pages of bonsaiTALK is an opinion. We see trees posted, we see trees repotted, we see trees in formal displays, and everyone has an opinion of how well it has been presented. Moreover, many trees that are posted asking for help will never use most of the information given in opinionated replies. Most of the time the tree is posted for nothing more than to receive an opinion. Most are seeking good replies while giving back an opinion on bad replies. Now we have a major exchange of opinion from two people that will never agree and add nothing significant to the bonsai as fact.

Just how much trust you put into the opinions of those that post here is a decision you have to deal with daily
So do we do bonsai for the approval and validation of someone else’s opinion or do we do bonsai for our own gratification, in your own opinion?

Go ahead and try to state this as a fact I dare ya….

Keppler

__________________
It's about time that the proper respect be given to the fine art of balloon animals...

...that there are opinions, and then, there are informed opinions!

Regards,

Matt

Interesting, but at the end of it all the only relevant opinion is the one you arrive at.

Ash

Interesting! As for opinions, they evolve, as we evolve. Our thoughts on a subject change with both time and learning. Good topic for thought...

Thanks
Jay

"...that there are opinions, and then, there are informed opinions!"

That's pretty much it in a nutshell. Everyone from the rankest beginner to the oldest hand has an opinion. They are not equal though. Saying something has "redeeming qualities" has very different meanings depending on which one is offering the opinion.

This is hard to pin down, as opinions are also on a sliding scale, not only between people, but from the same person and with different material. Sometimes, you just have to use your own judgement

"....Andy Rutledge says there are facts to artistry. Really, are there, or is that just his opinion...."

Generally, I agree with you Al. But after a multi-page debate on this point with Andy, Vance and others a year or more ago, I came to accept that there are certain "facts" if you want to call them that. I am fairly certain (fact or opinion?) that all people's brains are hard-wired to perceive many common artistic conventions in the same way. For instance, smaller things, converging toward a point in the composition, are perceived as being farther away. That perception seems to be consistent for all people in all cultures.

As for "good or bad", "pleasing or not", opine away...

Brian

Obviously, we do bonsai for our own pleasure. I wouldn't spend hundreds of hours a year to please someone else.

But I realize that bonsai requires a tremendous amount of learning. Both at the horticultural and artistic level. Therefore, I look for the opinion of those whom I admire and respect. For instance, I admire Kimura, so I would love to hear his opinion. Not to please him, but to learn from him. I trust his opinion because I am familiar with his work.

I trust the opinion of those who produce works that I admire. This doesn't mean that I follow everything they say. But I try to understand where they are coming from. The key word is understanding them, not following them.

Conversely, I don't trust the opinions of those who I am not familiar with. Not because I think that they are wrong. They may be just as insightful as Kimura's. But since I am not familiar with them, I need to take them with a grain of salt.

It's a very simple proposition: you either trust someone or you don't. It is based on how much you know about them. I also realize that nobody is perfect. Anybody can make a mistake, even the best ones.

"Obviously, we do bonsai for our own pleasure. I wouldn't spend hundreds of hours a year to please someone else."

Oh, I don't think this is obvious at all. Be honest. Sure, you grow bonsai for yourself--mostly.

However, who doesn't like it when someone complements you on a tree you've made--usually the tree you hate the most

For those who grow bonsai "for themselves"--how many secretly want to enter a contest to see how their trees are compared to someone else's? How many times have you seen a tree online and though "gee, I can do better than THAT?" How many bonsai have you seen in person and thought where the artist "went wrong?"

C'mon. Be real. It's human to compare yourself and your abilities with others. Yeah, I recognize the difference of working towards your own goals and having goals set for you by others, but it's not obvious where one stops and the other begins, sometimes. If everyone didn't care what others thought about their trees, bonsai would be the lesser for it.

I use others' opinions for what they are --opinions. I am not a slave to them, neither do I ignore they can offer insight I do not have.

Of course, who would disagree with that?

I compare myself with others all the time. But I still do bonsai exclusively for my own pleasure, and NOT to please others.

And as far as opinions go, I only care about the opinion of those whom I trust and amire. The opinion of the masses does NOT affect my work even to the slightest extent. I am curious about these opinions, just as I am curious about the mating habits of certain tree frogs, but the former affects me as much as the latter.

Listen, if you want to know how you are doing, take your tree to a teacher, a master, an artist, and listen to what they have to say. It has to be someone who cares (at least for the moment) about your work. Then think and reflect on it. When you really listen to those people, it will affect you work whether you realize it or not.

Opinion does not necessarily equal fact. We all have opinions, but I think that the real problem arises when we become dogmatic about our opinions and stop listening to the other side of the issue. This is when we stop learning – I know because I am guilty of this trait.

Attila says it best

Jon